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New They're using different definitions of efficiency.
There's efficiency in terms of price (which may or may not be related to cost - "my team is cheaper"/"my team gives better long-term value to the company"), and there's efficiency in terms of speed (output per unit time - "my team delivers on time"), and there's efficiency in terms of output per head ("my small team does a better job for the company than a cheaper army of workers in the Sahel"), and there's efficiency in terms of flexibility and nimbleness ("my team can do anything and do it on time and under budget"), and maybe a few more.

All management isn't equal. Presumably, e.g., $xx B/yr IBM Global Services contractors working for XYZ Corp have more layers of management than employees of $10 M/yr XYZ Corp do. It doesn't mean that the overall efficiency of the management of the contractors is worse than for internal employees. (E.g. IBM's management may have implemented processes that let them spread the management over more people more efficiently.) If XYZ Corp cans their IT people for IBM Global Services but keeps their same management structure that they had for their team, then I'd guess they're probably adding management inefficiencies. But it probably depends on the individual case.

They're both making good points, but they're not agreeing on what the terms mean so they're talking past each other.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Stop trying to spoil my fun :-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New And mine! :-D

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
     Outsourcing saves less than claimed - (lincoln) - (97)
         This is going to end up on a lot of corporate desks. - (imqwerky) - (92)
             Won't change anything - (ben_tilly) - (91)
                 s/(mis)/(mc)/g -NT - (boxley)
                 all true - (cforde) - (89)
                     Assume that the truth is somewhere in between - (bepatient) - (88)
                         That could still be mismanagement - (ben_tilly) - (87)
                             Likely that internally would be mismanaged as well, then. - (bepatient) - (86)
                                 Outsourcing adds an extra layer of complexity. - (imric) - (8)
                                     Possibly. But not if done correctly - (bepatient) - (7)
                                         The right people can succeed no matter what - (ben_tilly)
                                         No matter what. - (imric) - (5)
                                             And I made the clarification earlier - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                 We also have onsite staff. - (imric) - (3)
                                                     The overall point - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                         But ONLy if they are unwilling to reorganize to a more - (imric) - (1)
                                                             There are ALOT of those, you >do< know this. -NT - (bepatient)
                                 Mostly agreed - (ben_tilly) - (76)
                                     Aye. -NT - (imric)
                                     Fully agree on core competence - (bepatient)
                                     so what are we trying to optimize? - (cforde) - (73)
                                         Bob Lewis at InfoWorld actually has a good one for this - (drewk) - (72)
                                             <advocate mode="devil">OTOH</advocate> - (imric) - (71)
                                                 I think it's perspective and definitions - (drewk) - (18)
                                                     And sales, warehousing, inventory - (imric) - (17)
                                                         Do you have plumbers on staff? - (drewk) - (3)
                                                             And when IT is as dependable as plumbing - (imric) - (2)
                                                                 It's ironic that you'd call plumbing "dependable" - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                     You do have a point there - (imric)
                                                         Example - (bepatient) - (12)
                                                             You know me better than to - (imric) - (11)
                                                                 Who said anything about not having onsite staff? - (bepatient) - (10)
                                                                     Failure financially. - (imric) - (9)
                                                                         No more likely - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                             Nonsense. - (imric) - (7)
                                                                                 IT is a commodity. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                                                     Wait for this pendulum to swing back - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                         All what eggs now? - (pwhysall)
                                                                                     What you say is only somewhat true - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                 All of your argument - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                     Mmmmhmmm - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                         Just simply wrong on many levels - (bepatient)
                                                 Jumping in late - (danreck) - (51)
                                                     And in line with this - (bepatient) - (48)
                                                         Nor are they likely - (imric) - (38)
                                                             Keep reaching - (bepatient) - (37)
                                                                 Step 1 - steal all the underwear. Step 3. Profit. - (imric)
                                                                 Come on Bill - (danreck) - (35)
                                                                     Sigh - (bepatient) - (34)
                                                                         Without IT, the business will fail - (imric) - (33)
                                                                             You continue to make a blanket statement that is not true - (bepatient) - (32)
                                                                                 Mmmhmmm - (imric) - (31)
                                                                                     Re: Mmmhmmm - (pwhysall) - (16)
                                                                                         Unless more management = more efficient - (imric) - (12)
                                                                                             branched outsourcing costs more (new thread) - (boxley)
                                                                                             That clears that up, then. - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                                 *shrug* - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                                     you havnt even attempted to address my branched reply -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                             Skip, YOU haven't been reading - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                                                                                 On the contrary! - (imric) - (5)
                                                                                                     look at SAP, Oracle Financials, PeopleSoft - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                         There's stuff like Sarbanes-Oxley too... -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                     A new employee is coming Monday... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                                         1 hour. Our procedures have it set up the day before. - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                                             If you don't have good procedures and people... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                                 .... -NT - (imric)
                                                                                         They're using different definitions of efficiency. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                             Stop trying to spoil my fun :-) -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                 And mine! :-D -NT - (imric)
                                                                                     Before this right shifts anymore - (danreck) - (1)
                                                                                         Too true - (bepatient)
                                                                                     No they aren't. They are oversimplifications - (bepatient) - (11)
                                                                                         Straw men marching? - (imric) - (10)
                                                                                             You are off your rocker - (bepatient) - (9)
                                                                                                 And what delivers that service? Robots? - (imric) - (8)
                                                                                                     Maybe - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                                         As long as you get it in a timely fashion, - (imric) - (6)
                                                                                                             Ah, we've taken the first step, grasshopper. - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                                                                 Cost <> price. - (imric) - (4)
                                                                                                                     I have a hard time agreeing with any of this - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                                         So dollars are all. The spreadsheet is king. - (imric) - (2)
                                                                                                                             Not everything. - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                                                 roundandroundandroundandround -NT - (imric)
                                                         Plants - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                                                             No it's not - (drewk) - (2)
                                                                 If we are talking about offshoring, you are right. -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                     True -NT - (drewk)
                                                             And one more time. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                 Where did I say offshore? - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                                     Re: Where did I say offshore? - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                         Ah - well that is the crux of the offshoring problem - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                                                             Understood... - (bepatient)
                                                     Me too - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                         Or maybe youhave the data - (bepatient)
         If it doesn't work, do more of it. - (Another Scott) - (3)
             The sign isn't appropriate - (danreck) - (2)
                 Hola Danno! - (Ashton) - (1)
                     Re: Hola Danno! - (danreck)

I see mass suicides and riots in the future as every urkel fashion sense inspired computer nerd throws down their oxy pads and mutters, "enough is enough," then takes to the streets, scsi cards in hand, and it will be dark, dark day indeed my friend.
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