It's a SAAB! ___It's a GM__

Post #23,402 by Ashton 1/7/02 4:08:36 PM Reply	It's a SAAB! ___It's a GM___ It's a YAN take on making it have a high C.G. and pretend it handles as well as a low C.G. ... for all those trendy buyers who ask.. What's a C.G. ? Nope.. 'Saab' is dead. GM kiss-of death. No more engineers who trained creating the Vigilens (sp? CRC) fighter plane which used to kick everyone's ass.. just point-and-click joystick jockeys who start with a safe body-shape and then make the real parts scrunch in inside - all inaccessible to fix! o'course. Sorry sir - that's 5.8 hours to get to your alternator. Oh BTW - the regulator isn't separate but, new alternator is a mere $700. (We so cleverly made it reeely tiny, you see..) Plus that little labor charge. Wanna ask what a valve adjustment costs? Or that cute fibre cam belt..? The homogenized Kar Car has arrived. Test: you're parked at the Mall o'Murica (right next to the new 100 screen multiplex Blockbuster All-Adventure All-the-Time Theatre) and.. You look out on a sea of cars (95% still not yet.. 30% paid-for). WHICH one o' these Generic Kars is... yours ?? Ashton Yeah Box, I realize that yours is apt to be a '60s behemoth with the rear doors welded shut - reflecting its origin at an 'after dirt-track' special auction ;-) I meant: all the rest..
Post #23,403 by CRConrad 1/7/02 4:35:24 PM Reply	"Viggen", meaning "Thunderbolt" (from Mjolnir). HTH!
Post #23,411 by Ashton 1/7/02 5:21:59 PM Reply	Thanx; too lazy to look for early Saab brochure.. :(
Post #23,409 by a6l6e6x 1/7/02 4:57:42 PM 1/7/02 4:59:07 PM Reply	It's a Volvo! ___It's a Ford___ It's a YAN [link\|http://www.volvoxc90.com/intro.html\|SUV.] The Swedes have gone mad! Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) Edited by a6l6e6x Jan. 7, 2002, 04:59:07 PM EST Expand All History
Post #23,420 by Ashton 1/7/02 5:44:18 PM Reply	{sigh} Murican taste(lessness) has made whores of .. all mfgs. everywhere. If Tickle-Me Elmo had had legs.. - you can bet that every other cup-holder (10? in some UAVs) by now would have been made to accommodate each parent & child's fetish doll. Could be worse.. I guess. What if most came with a medallion already installed below rear-view mirror, I don't care if it rains or freezes Long as I gots my plastic Jesus (No dis for JC - it ain't His fault!) Missed my chance to get a Toyota Inprise.. when early ones weren't a lot over $10K. (If.. they actually delivered any of those at that price) I wonder if anyone ever looks at the C.U. 'bumper-basher' test results.?. ever since Ronnie gave the Detroit folks the Out of "2\ufffd MPH" bumpers, costing Muricans tens of $billions since. My almost 25 year old Saab has No marks on the body, and only a messed up $20 plastic trim on rear bumper now: after an Acura did ~ $3K damage rear ending me a while back. (That also did make a crack in muffler/tailpipe assy = patched OK.) Had to chuckle deeply at the contrast in repair costs. Ugh. Saab had Real 5 MPH bumpers in 1972! Had one o' those too. {sigh\ufffd} It's crap like this, that makes it hard for me to decide what to replace the Saab with.. a bit before need: it will always be a great back-up wheels. :( Ashton toys Are fun - but not to drive in. One sculpted fender: $2500 please. Oh! did you want that installed too ? ABS master cylinder.. never mind.
Post #23,444 by inthane-chan 1/7/02 8:51:31 PM Reply	NOOOOOOOOO!!! As a long time Volvo driver, I was afraid this was coming, after the merger... Is there still a car left unsullied by the Murican Auto Industry? "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #23,446 by a6l6e6x 1/7/02 9:14:55 PM Reply	My sentiments, exactly. Now we now why nothing followed the V70. I'll try to make my '98 S70 last. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #23,449 by Meerkat 1/7/02 9:39:51 PM Reply	Mitsuoka. Yup, certainly [link\|http://www.mitsuoka-motor.com/mitsuoka/docs/top_e.html\|Mitsuoka]. Unsullied by the Murican Auto Industry. And IIRC they're in the top 10 of Japanese car manufacturers. On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #23,462 by CRConrad 1/8/02 5:34:32 AM Reply	Bah humbug - they're deeply "influenced" by Clenet! Their [link\|http://www.mitsuoka-motor.com/mitsuoka/docs/leseyde2_e.html\|Le Seyde 2] is pretty much exactly a copy of the original Clenet concept. (For those not up-to-date on their Vulgomobile lore, Clenet pioneered the idea of building a "1920's-30's look" car on a modern chassis, way back in the early or mid-seventies. Only he used Lincoln ladder frames, whereas the Le Seyde 2 is based on the Nissan Silvia.) Oh yeah, and how many Japanese car manufacturers ARE there -- no more than ten at the most, right...? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,463 by CRConrad 1/8/02 5:48:27 AM Reply	Oh, shaddapayafaces! Ferchrissake, relax, guys... They're not Corrupted By Evil at all, just exhibiting some sound business sense. If you're already building station wagons -- Oh, excuuuse mee, Volvo, "Estate Cars" -- anyway, and if the American car-buying public are stupid enough to A) want to ride around in big brutal gas-guzzling Jeeps in order to feel "macho", and B) accept that station wagons (or "Estate Cars") with a bit more ground clearance and silly plastic fender extensions and shit are big mach Jeeps... Then you'd just be stupid not to raise your station wagon ("Estate", yadda yadda) off the ground a bit, slap some biggger plastic bumpers on it, and fleece the suckers for all they're worth by selling it to them -- at a premium, of course! -- as a "Jeep". Works like a charm for Mercedes (M-class) and BMW (X5) too, but doesn't mean a thing -- they still build real cars to sell to a more discerning public, like on this side of the Pond. (Oh, and Alex, whaddayamean "nothing followed the V70"? Never heard of the S60?) Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,472 by a6l6e6x 1/8/02 10:13:57 AM Reply	Re: Never heard of the S60? Sedans, yes. Wagons, no. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #23,476 by CRConrad 1/8/02 10:40:17 AM Reply	But then, why should anything have "followed" the V70?!? Aren't they selling it in the States at the moment, so you didn't know it was still around (or, is around again, if you will) -- or had you just not noticed that they've replaced the old (renamed 850) "V70" with an all-new (S80-derived) one last year or so? Or is it that you don't agree with (or hadn't fully grokked) their recent model strategy, and want the wagons to carry the same model number as the sedans, in stead of this interleaving tactic (S60, V70, S80, V[X]90) they're using nowadays? If so, why? I think I see why they're doing it -- they want to shed their all-estate image and give the sedans a chance to shine on their own by differentiating them from the wagons -- and I suspect it has a good chance of working. Look for the new V50 (and after that, a new S40 sedan) at a Volvo dealer close to you sometime soon, is my prediction... :-) What's wrong with that? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,494 by a6l6e6x 1/8/02 11:51:51 AM Reply	Re: But then, why should anything have "followed" the V70? In the past, there have been sedan/wagon pairings in a line (e.g. 850 sedan/850 wagon, S70/V70, S40/V40). My '98 S70 has a tunnel from front to back (with a hump on the floor for back seat passengers) that is only needed for the drive shaft of the 4 wheel drive wagon. That's how they get manufacturing economies. Disregarding the public nomenclature of models, it would be folly to have a totally distinct chassis for each vehicle model. I expected a V80 mate for the S80 and V60 mate for the S60. But no, they keep selling the V70 long after the S70 has been replaced. Perhaps I have not looked closely, but the V70 being sold now does not appear to be S80 based. So, the V70 looks like a placeholder for folks that just need to have a large Volvo wagon. My expectation is that the V70 will vanish soon and the SUV will fill that spot. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #23,502 by CRConrad 1/8/02 12:24:50 PM Reply	Nope, it ain't gonna vanish - not anytime soon, anyway. They're intentionally trying to get away from that "pairing" by staggering their models (with steppings in overall size corresponding to those in model number); it ain't going to be the old way no more. The new V70 (sure, it looks pretty much like the old one -- but then, this is Volvo, spelled c-o-n-s-e-r-v-a-t-i-v-e, we're talking about! :-) is based on a shortened S80 platform. (Which coincidentally puts it size-wise pretty much exactly where its predecessor was.) So, no, they didn't "keep selling the V70 long after the S70 has been replaced" -- the V70 was replaced too, only you didn't notice yet. All that remains to be seen whether the V50 I'm so (perhaps over-)confidently predicting will be based on a shrunken S60 platform, or a stretched S40 one. Or perhaps the next-generation S40 will be based on a shortened V50 platform. (Which will thus be a twice-shortened S60 platform! :-) Whatever... [From the Dept of Further Over-Confident predictions:] If they do anything with the SUV, it won't be to replace the V70, but to rip off the plastic Jeepy-bits, lower (and maybe stretch?) it a little, and slot it in as a V90 estate above the S80 in their line-up. (And yes, Swedish car magazines have been mumbling about a possible future "S100" Über-Volvo sedan to top off the range, for years already.) Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,473 by boxley 1/8/02 10:15:48 AM Reply	If ya want to do an SUV do it right It looks like the whine is doing it right. thanx, bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,478 by bepatient 1/8/02 10:49:51 AM Reply	No way... [link\|http://www.lambocars.com/lm/lm004s.htm\|This is the right way] Nothing like doing 140mph over open terrain. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #23,479 by boxley 1/8/02 10:54:20 AM Reply	6 weber carbs? fsck that, spend all yer time tuning My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,480 by admin 1/8/02 10:54:39 AM Reply	So what do you drive in the snow over there? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,484 by CRConrad 1/8/02 11:29:25 AM Reply	30-year-old rear-wheel-drive Volvo 142s etc; what else?
Post #23,487 by admin 1/8/02 11:33:24 AM Reply	Ah... right... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,491 by CRConrad 1/8/02 11:44:40 AM Reply	Really, seriously, we do; I remember a statistic... ...from a while back (i.e, five or ten years or so) that said the cars on Swedish roads were the oldest in Europe, with a median age of thirteen years or something (eleven? eighteen?), far outlasting what you'd think were poorer countries in the South. Only now I have this feeling I heard or read somewhere recently how the Finnish car park had surpassed the Swedish one... Now do you see why I have a hard time sympathizing with Alex's agonizing over what he's going to replace his '98 Volvo with? He already has a fucking brand-spanking new car! My own Volvo will be fifty years old next year. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,493 by admin 1/8/02 11:47:45 AM Reply	But how well does a rear-wheel car do in the snow? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,495 by boxley 1/8/02 11:53:50 AM Reply	with posi rearend much better than front wheel drive I have extensive experience with both, also I prefer to disconnect the ABS as sharp turns on glare ice is easier to accomplish with hard braking. thanx, bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,496 by admin 1/8/02 11:55:32 AM Reply	That seems counter-intuitive. As the front-wheel drive car has all the weight over the wheels. How does it compare to 4WD? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,500 by boxley 1/8/02 12:03:20 PM Reply	4 wheel drive is geared towards additional traction in deep snow somewhat useless in glare ice situations. Yes the weight is over the wheels but the turn radius is much larger. Traction in rear wheel vehicles is sufficient except in hub deep snow where 4 wheel is better. Studs or chains on a rearwheel will give all the traction you need with better manueverability. thanx, bill 4 wheel drive a way of saying stuck deeper and further. My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,511 by admin 1/8/02 1:12:32 PM Reply	OK, that makes sense. What I have to deal with here is no snow on the main roads, and typically 6" to 1 foot in the subdivision. Since I can't stop to put chains on and studs are illegal here, from what you're telling me a 4WD would work best. In my experience, the traction of my RWD Mustang is not sufficient in any snow. The FWD minivan does much better in our subdivision. I'm not concerned about sliding and the like. I'm concerned about not getting stuck over and over again (like last year) in my subdivision. :-) Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,518 by boxley 1/8/02 1:30:04 PM Reply	no studs and >1ft snow low subd speeds? All wheel drive My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,523 by Another Scott 1/8/02 2:11:37 PM Reply	Tires and Torque. Hi Scott, In my experience, the traction of my RWD Mustang is not sufficient in any snow. The FWD minivan does much better in our subdivision. Apples and oranges. :-) Your Mustang probably has wider "performance" tires while your minivan has narrower all-season tires. Your Mustang has lots more torque than your MV. And, your Mustang has little weight on the driving tires while the MV has lots. If your Mustang is a manual transmission car and while your MV is an automatic, that makes a difference too. It's not just FWD vs RWD. :-) Tires make a big difference as stories in Car and Driver and the like make clear. [link\|http://www.hehd.clemson.edu/PRTM/special/GH/Drive.htm\|Here's] a nice cheat-sheet on driving on snow. [link\|http://www.epinions.com/content_41628634756\|Here's] an epinions piece talking about the wonders of Blizzak snow tires on a 1995 Mustang in Michigan. Cheers, Scott.
Post #23,524 by admin 1/8/02 2:23:16 PM Reply	Not necessarily. Your Mustang probably has wider "performance" tires while your minivan has narrower all-season tires. Somewhat wider, yes, but the same BF Goodrich All Season Radials. :-) When there is so much snow that even narrow tires don't reach the pavement, or the pavement underneath is ice, the wider tires should actually do better. Your Mustang has lots more torque than your MV. Very true, but I know better than to torque the tires in the snow. I tend to start off in second gear during the winter. And, your Mustang has little weight on the driving tires while the MV has lots. Which is a function of RWD vs. FWD. If your Mustang is a manual transmission car and while your MV is an automatic, that makes a difference too. Yes, the manual should be easier to drive in the snow due to the greater control over the application of power. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,525 by boxley 1/8/02 2:27:58 PM Reply	dumb question, sandbags in the trunk? My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,528 by admin 1/8/02 2:49:02 PM Reply	Hatchback. Good way to get decapitated in an accident. :-) Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,545 by CRConrad 1/8/02 5:18:41 PM Reply	No it ain't... A Scott: [Quoting another:] And, your Mustang has little weight on the driving tires while the MV has lots. Which is a function of RWD vs. FWD. Naah: The Porsche 911 is rear-wheel-drive, and it's got most of its weight on the driving wheels. Pedantically yours, Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,547 by admin 1/8/02 5:21:14 PM Reply	Pedantic indeed. For most of the RWD vehicles that I'm ever likely to drive, then. :-) Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,510 by inthane-chan 1/8/02 1:12:18 PM Reply	I don't know about 4wd... ...but I too prefer a rear-wheel drive Volvo station wagon to a front-wheel drive US car. A few years ago, we had one of those city-wide shutdowns - 1.5 feet of snow on everything. Nobody went anywhere, and those who did generally got stuck. Except for me. My wife was working at a group home as a caregiver for people with cerebral palsy, and nobody could get there because the cars kept getting stuck. So I drove her there and back, over and over, along with the rest of the staff, for the week it took to unbury the city. The key to driving a rwd vehicle is that you're driving a boat, not a car, when it's snowy or icy. The car continues in motion in the direction you were headed instead of instantly turning. As long as you remember that, you don't have that much of a problem. Also, not having to worry about snow drifts is quite handy. If you drive into something that you can't get through, you just back out of it. With fwd, you're stuck. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #23,512 by admin 1/8/02 1:15:19 PM Reply	Doesn't jibe with my experience. My RWD car gets stuck in snow all the time. And our driveway is 1) inclined fairly steeply and 2) has no straight shot -- corner lot, two quick turns to get into it then up the hill. The FWD minivan has no problems at all with the same driveway. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,505 by CRConrad 1/8/02 12:42:29 PM Reply	If you're used to it (and careful), it's manageable. People here can do it, because that's what they've always done. (And of course it helps that we have pretty competent plowing-and-sanding crews, too.) But of course in the absolute majority of situations, front- (or even better, four-) -wheel-drive is better, in winter conditions. Sorry, the Ox is blowing smoke: Sure, you can get sharper turns on shiny ice with the (rear-wheel) hand brake in stead of the ABS system -- but just how desirable is the ability to do a pirouette on ice, and exactly how often do situations where it is, occur? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,507 by boxley 1/8/02 12:47:16 PM Reply	Not the handbrake, remove the ABS fuse you are on glare ice needing to make a left at an intersection, you turn the wheel, nothing happens you are still travelling forward. You brake hard turn wheel all the way release brake and vehicle pivots in the direction of travel. With abs you cannot get a "lock" condition so it doesnt work as well. In Sweden and other northern climbs, plowing and sanding is done regularly. In Alaska it is considered an option behind everything else you could think of. My tenants have told me that the street has not seen a plow or a grader yet this winter despite lots of snow rain and freezes. My house in in the middle (sort of ) the city in a regular neighborhood. They said last year the road was only plowed once. thanx, bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,509 by CRConrad 1/8/02 1:05:45 PM Reply	"[Y]ou turn the wheel, nothing happens"; y'know what that... ...means? It means you're going to fast for the conditions, that's what. BRRRPPHT, sorry, this participant is disqualified for violating Rule One! And if, for once, by mistake, you happen to get into a "you turn the wheel, nothing happens" situation, then you don't need all that lock-all-the-wheels tomfoolery that would require disabling the ABS anyway -- just declutch, and you're free-rolling jut the same whether your car is RWD or FWD... Ooooh, I see: ...As long as it's manual-clutched! That's the problem, I think: You guys have to resort to fiddling with the safety equipment, because you insist on buying cars without real gear boxes and clutches. I'll revise my recommendation: Learn to shift and dump the stupid auto, in stead. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,514 by admin 1/8/02 1:18:01 PM Reply	Agreement there If you're sliding, you're going too quickly. As I said elsewhere, I need to not get stuck, not have better handling on ice. WRT to a manual transmission, that's what I drive now. Unfortunately, my wife is incapable of learning a stick shift (it's a basic miswiring in her brain, not will to learn), so my next car has to be automatic so she can use it if necessary. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,517 by boxley 1/8/02 1:28:39 PM Reply	get into a parking lot try it and report back If you are on glare ice 5mph is often 2 fast. Turn wheel, nothing happens is momentum in the direction of travel due to slickness, tapping the brake is easier than dragging the shifter down a notch, yes I prefer manually shifted cars but my wife certainly does not and agree manuals are decidedly safer to drive. thats why the common name for an aurtomatic is a slushbox. thanx, bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,542 by CRConrad 1/8/02 5:06:40 PM Reply	Ah, I see: Good only down to "Slush" on the thermometer! :-)
Post #23,503 by a6l6e6x 1/8/02 12:32:24 PM Reply	Re: replace his '98 Volvo with? Actually, my goal is make it to 2008 with it. At that point maintenance costs and reliability would make it not worth keeping it. My 1988 (740 sedan) Volvo was "totaled" in 1994, my 1994 (850 sedan) Volvo was totaled in 2000. I seem to be a magnet for 16 year old male drivers. But, I keep trying to get 10 years service out of my Volvos. Hey, I got deal for you. My son in law and daughter have a practically new 1991 Volvo station wagon they would be happy to sell you. They spent over $1000 to repair the air conditioning this past summer. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #23,506 by CRConrad 1/8/02 12:45:29 PM Reply	Woo, air-con! - But, I can't afford such a luxury car! ;-)
Post #23,556 by Meerkat 1/8/02 5:59:48 PM Reply	Air-con not quite a luxury here in .au And I can't add anything to the whole snow/ice driving discussion, having never done it. Basically, I'm sure the first moment I came across ice on the road, I'd plough straight into the nearest Something Solid with pretty much no idea how to avert the situation. Remind me not to hire a car should I find myself overseas at during winter :) The first car I bought didn't have air-conditioning. When summer rolled around, I swore all my future cars would have it. Yow. True, opening the windows is all well and good when yer moving, but when stuck in mid-afternoon peak hour traffic and it 35 degress C outisde, you bake, plain and simple. I still can't drive a manual transmission - I was taught to drive an auto as we didn't have a manual car in the family, and have stuck with buying dodgem-cars ever since. Or the lame-o way of justifying it is - I only have two feet, why would I want three pedals? :) On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #23,559 by CRConrad 1/8/02 6:12:35 PM Reply	You hardly ever want to accelerate and brake simultaneously.
Post #23,565 by Meerkat 1/8/02 6:28:41 PM Reply	True! I'll make a feeble attempt to redeem the fact I'm an auto driver by saying that at least I'm not a 'one foot per pedal' auto driver. So at least I have upgrade-to-a-Manuel potential :) On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #23,568 by CRConrad 1/8/02 6:41:02 PM Reply	Whatcha driving now, a Jose'? :-)
Post #23,572 by Meerkat 1/8/02 7:00:20 PM Reply	Don't spose anyone else calls 'em "spanish cars" It's probably a .au thing. as we refer to them as manuals, rather than stick-shifts. For the record, I drive a '94 Nissan Bluebird SSS. Can't remember what it was called in other markets - maybe the Primera. So anonymously styled it's almost invisible - but that's part of the appeal. On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #23,574 by CRConrad 1/8/02 7:22:24 PM Reply	Naah, British usage too. Just punning on your French(?) spelling of "manual" as "Manuel". Yeah, I think by '94 the Bluebird had been replaced by the otherwise suspiciously similar Primera here in Europe. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,575 by Meerkat 1/8/02 7:38:23 PM Reply	Manuel on purpose. I'm just bored at work :) As for the Bluebird, the head-up display is very cute. Apart from that it's fairly standard fare. You know, dependable, quiet, ... basically all the things my '86 Celica wasn't. On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #23,619 by boxley 1/9/02 8:57:22 AM Reply	driving on ice, cars fer let If you ever find yourself in that position, head for the nearest empty parking lot and deliberately skid and get a feel for correcting out of them. I always practiced during first snowfall to get the "feel" back of snow/ice driving thanx, bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,595 by Ashton 1/8/02 9:31:31 PM Reply	Volvo:Saab ratio in Finland? I've driven mine in snow only a few times - no surprises, with just usual Michelin XZX tires. And instant starting after cold-soak overnight at - minus a few \ufffdC. Not owned a Volvo but would be surprised if it's vastly superior at low temps - either in the clockworks / heat&defrost / general handling (?) Guess my first Citr\ufffden (a ratty '57 DS) spoiled me for most any RWD since. (Yes yes.. I'll gladly take a hand-me-down Porsche, even the unostentatious 912, if it was stored in a coccoon since the '60s). Still think that C. was onto something with their inboard front discs = much less unsprung weight. 1-bolt wheels were nice too (but those forged hubs likely expen$ive). Wonder why no one else did inboard; possibly the width re the new econo-car sizes (?) {sigh} Gettin about time to pass on the Saab to a friend, who always loved to drive it.. and for various cockamamie reasons, get something with: 4-speed auto (!) Yep, they know how to make those now, and while I could even.. double clutch a crash box if need be: why would anyone Want to, unless on the Mille Miglia? Also something sans *$&^$ ABS: anytime I can't outstop that robot, I'll hang it up. (I don't drive on oiled skidpads. Often.) A/C, modern power steering; quiet and reliable. Liked the way the Acura (a '93) drove and stopped and even, its road feel. The quality of execution on that '93 was/is amazing - and it has held up, driven not too kindly by a woman who brakes for animals at Any speed {shudder}. Engine looks like motorcycle quality finish; the whole compartment. Nada Zippo has broken since 2/93! New elcheapo / used not-so cheapo [??] Maybe $12K. Alas newish Acura is tooo much. So many choices.. Maybe Fascism IS better ;-) Ashton migawd.. lose all that Saab lore and Start Over? :(
Post #23,610 by CRConrad 1/9/02 4:42:51 AM Reply	Dunno exactly; a bit more Volvos than SAABs, I think. Ashton writes: Not owned a Volvo but would be surprised if it's vastly superior at low temps - either in the clockworks / heat&defrost / general handling (?) Well, since the 850 (the first FWD "real" Volvo), general handling is probably pretty much the same... heat&defrost on both is, as was to be expected, about equal too -- i.e, vastly superior to Dagomobiles from Wop places like Germany... But for "running like clockwork", I get the feeling that Volvo has, and has had, the better reputation. SAAB was catching up, had pretty much caught up, by the late eighties, but since then the introduction of the Vectra-based 900 model (and its successor, the 9-3) has tarnished the image of reliability again. Still think that C[itroen] was onto something with their inboard front discs = much less unsprung weight. [...] Wonder why no one else did inboard; possibly the width re the new econo-car sizes (?) Dunno... Could it be just supplier inertia, mutual lock-in? (A la, "There are only external brake assemblies to be bought, so we'll design our next model for them too" -- "Only cars with external brakes are biuilt, so we'll design our next assembly that way too".) FWIW, at least one manufacturer did (does?) build cars with inboard discs: The famous ("As Seen On Virtually Every Hot-Rod From The Seventies And Eighties") Jaguar individually-sprung rear axle. I suppose one determining factor is, you only get that on a driving axle: Outside the world of racing, you only put the brakes inboard if there's a (drive) shaft there already; otherwise, it's just cheaper to run the hydraulic lines all the way out to the wheel than to introduce a shaft (and, in the case of the steered [i.e, usually, front] wheels, a universal joint etc) solely for the purpose of braking. Also something sans $&^$ ABS: anytime I can't outstop that robot, I'll hang it up. (I don't drive on oiled skidpads. Often.) Then hang it up right now, 'coz you can't. Really, seriously -- trust me, nobody* can. To the extent that it isn't used in Formula One, that's because it's (at least partially?) banned there -- i.e, if it weren't banned, it would be used (more?), because even these guys do better with it than without it. Independent impromptu "tests" by motoring magazines tend to be headlined "Granny Outbrakes ABS-disabled Montoya" or "Old Geezer Driving With Hat And ABS Handily Beats Schumacher Without Either". And that's on racing tracks, not oiled skidpads. migawd.. lose all that Saab lore and Start Over? :( Sure, no problem. It's like bicycling, you know... :-) Or, IOW: Once you've learnt to learn one thing, learning the next isn't that big a deal. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,615 by Ashton 1/9/02 6:50:19 AM Reply	I could be wrong about good ABS, of course. ..and especially on ice or odd terrain. Wasn't impressed with a couple local samples - Saturn, for the worst example. Also forgot about the 850. Nice but outta my league. As far as I'm concerned, Saab died when Scania lost control of engineering. It's now just another Yuppie toy - sellin the image/sizzle, not the bacon. Oh well.. Ashton noticing the rave reviews of the new Hyundai (!!) Elantra HB - apparently caught-up to Japanese construction quality, exc. brakes and lots of well executed details. Even the curmudgeons had only a couple minor nits (front-end styling! Sheesh.)
Post #23,621 by boxley 1/9/02 9:05:32 AM Reply	newer used car buying advice If your looking for a newer older car, look in the phone book under car rentals for ads like ugly duckling, take a turkey etc that rent 2 or 3 yr old cars cheap. That will allow you to try the feel of different rigs for a few days to see if it matches. It also allows you to see and feel what the new cars would be like in a few years. A 3 yrold hyundai will let you know what the new one will act and rattle like fairly quickly. thanx, bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,669 by Ashton 1/9/02 5:13:13 PM Reply	Good advice. Thanks. It may be less telling re Hyundai and 2001-02 models. Being fully aware of the rep of the first ones - they appear to have taken a giant leap in addressing this albatross rep. Hydraulic motor mounts = hardly an el-cheapo solution to that source of unwanted drummings. Anyway... as I note local taxes and some of the BS like "lettin the customer pay for Advertising !!" (which my car-buyin pro Never will stand for, in the end) - I may end up seeing if the Saab will go on for 30 years, not just 25. Fun.. Ashton techno is a Drug
Post #23,498 by a6l6e6x 1/8/02 11:59:13 AM Reply	Qualifies to be an antique! :) Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #23,504 by CRConrad 1/8/02 12:34:13 PM Reply	Sadly, not Over Here; that's pre-1920 or sumthin', IIRC! :-) Or pre-1910, I can't remember for sure. Not even a "Vintage", according to the "Official" classification I read somewhere ages ago, and perhaps not even a "Classic". (1910 - 1930 and 1930 - 1950, respectively? Idunno any more...) Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows -- Or At Least, Used To Know -- Fucking Everything
Post #23,508 by boxley 1/8/02 12:50:48 PM Reply	here classic is >20 years antique I dunno My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be

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