Post #205,955
5/4/05 8:08:01 PM
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Question about car shopping
Last time I was looking for a car, one of the major sites had a feature where you could put in the features you were looking for and it would spit out a list of cars that matched. Then you could search for any of those cars within a certain radius of your zipcode.
I'm looking again, and neither cars.com or autotrader.com has this feature. I can't remember using any other site for research. Am I forgetting another site? Or did one of those take down that feature?
Or, maybe someone can just answer my real question for me. My wife is going to be in a three-family car pool when school starts next year. We have two kids. That means she'll need at least four seats available besides the front row. This typically means minivan, but she doesn't want one. She really doesn't want an SUV. The Ford Freestyle specs look like what we want, but we could do with something a little smaller. Less expensive would be nice, too.
So other than minivans and SUVs, is there anything out there with a third row?
---
Interesting note: In the brochure for the Freestyle, they use the phrase "best in class" at least a dozen times, and I haven't even read all the copy yet. In only one of those cases is there an asterisk to a description of what that class is: "Medium crossover with third-row seating".
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #205,956
5/4/05 8:14:38 PM
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Been there - get the minivan
For handling and versatility a minivan can't be beat.
Glad she doesn't want a truck with a box bolted on (a.k.a. SUV)
You could try locating a station wagon...
Stick with the minivan (I'm partial to Dodge/Chrysler)
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #205,959
5/4/05 8:18:59 PM
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vehix advertises like crazy
never used them
You might note that with rising gas prices the resale value on a 3 year old SUV is less than 45% of the purchase price.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #206,109
5/5/05 2:51:24 PM
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Or 25% for a loaded Honda Pilot.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #205,960
5/4/05 8:24:28 PM
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gowith the freestar
you couldnt get my wife outof hers, gas milage isnt "that" bad and room for all. comfy to drive about 20k with all the goodies.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #205,967
5/4/05 8:36:52 PM
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But have any of you *seen* the Freestyle?
I hate the idea of buying a car the first year it's introduced. But it really does look like what I've been saying I want: A full-size wagon, but a little taller. No pretensions to off-road capability. Room for six. Better milage than a minivan.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #205,969
5/4/05 8:40:08 PM
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I have seen it, test drove it,bought the freestar
dunno about the milage but the service manager who is a band parent buddy sez there is hardly a difference.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #206,000
5/4/05 10:31:55 PM
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Chrysler Pacifica or Dodge Magnum.
Those should work well too.
And it is [link|http://www.vehix.com/|http://www.vehix.com/]
Cheers.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
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Post #206,008
5/4/05 10:51:22 PM
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Same as the others
You need to know what you're looking for before you can compare them.
I like the Pacifica, but didnt' know it had a third row. And I've already looked at the Magnum. Would love to have it, but it definitely didn't have a third row, unless that's a new option this year.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #206,065
5/5/05 9:44:34 AM
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Fuel Economy
[link|http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/bymanuNF.shtml|Gov Fuel Economy Website]
Minivans, Dodge and Ford 19-26. Freestyle 20-27.
I'd still opt for the minivan. Greater versatility.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #206,066
5/5/05 9:45:32 AM
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CVT?
Anyone heard anything good about it? First year, brand new technology... I'd be a bit worried about that, personally. There were some articles linked here for a different subject a while back that were slagging on CVTs.
For the rest of it, the Freestar sounds like a cut-down minivan - less people room, no sliding doors (invaluable, especially with kids, especially especially as they get older and start opening doors into cars parked next to you...). Man, is the dashboard fugly, too. Looking at the cargo stats, though, it seems to have the same cargo room as a Windstar with the seats out. That surprises me.
[link|http://cars.about.com/od/2001/fr/05_FreestyleAWD.htm|http://cars.about.co..._FreestyleAWD.htm]
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #206,067
5/5/05 9:56:07 AM
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There doesn't seem to be much real-world benefit yet.
[link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/content/11098616361346011107/|CVT RIP?]. CVT's pretty old technology, it's just been refined over the years.
One could get a Freestyle Hybrid, in principle. But I agree with the thrust of your comments. The best peoplemover for groups of 6 -7 is a minivan.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #206,078
5/5/05 10:42:13 AM
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That's the one.
The last bit is the really interesting part: the rumor that Ford is discontinuing the CVT on the 500 (which is pretty much the same Volvo platform as the Freestyle).
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #205,962
5/4/05 8:29:57 PM
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www.autotrader.com?
Dunno if their search is good enough though.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #205,968
5/4/05 8:37:30 PM
5/4/05 8:37:38 PM
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Did you RTFP? I mentioned that. :-P
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
Edited by drewk
May 4, 2005, 08:37:38 PM EDT
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Post #205,990
5/4/05 10:05:34 PM
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huhuh. Yeah. huhuhuh.
So I'm a butthead. huhuhuh.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #205,977
5/4/05 9:09:39 PM
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Maybe Edmunds?
For the carpool stuff, maybe a big wagon? No third row, but the [link|http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/chrysler/pacifica/wagon/large/index.html|Pacifica] is listed as seating 5 but the review claims it seats 6 - the Base invoice is $22.6k.
There's also the option of one of the huge old GM or Ford wagons that often had a 3rd row (for tiny tots), but finding one in good shape would be a challenge.
Realistically, a minivan best meets your stated specs. Maybe a used one if she really hates the idea of one?
Luck!
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #205,987
5/4/05 9:51:56 PM
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That's what I'm starting to think
Guess we'll just need to start test driving.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #205,991
5/4/05 10:07:02 PM
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Just get the van.
My wife was the same way.
She loves the van now.
Tell your wife to get over it.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #205,994
5/4/05 10:16:01 PM
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You lose
"Every mom at Winnie's dance class says they hate the minivans. If there was anything else that did the same thing but didn't look like a minivan they'd switch in a heartbeat."
She knows them better than she knows you. Looks like we'll be test-driving the Freestyle this weekend.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #206,063
5/5/05 9:23:10 AM
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She said it herself:
"If there were anything else..."
Looks aren't anything when it comes to what the minivans give you. Safest, biggest cargo space, most seats, best features inside. These things are made specifically for what she needs.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #206,106
5/5/05 2:34:27 PM
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You didn't answer: have you actually *seen* the Freestyle?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #206,139
5/5/05 5:52:40 PM
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Yeah, it looks like an SUV crossed with a wagon.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #206,017
5/5/05 12:22:18 AM
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Buy the van
Rent a minivan for a weekend and see if it doesn't fit the bill.
I never ever wanted a minivan..hated even the thought. Then, we were in a situation where we needed to get a vehicle with an automatic. My wife had foot surgery on her left foot, and both of our cars at the time were standards. Since we still owed money on her car, we sold my truck and bought a cheap minivan simply because a friend needed to get rid of it and the price was right. It didn't take long before we were very happy about the purchase, especially after taking a road trip in it. The versatility of the thing cannot be beat, it drives very well, and gets decent mileage.
We're on our second one now, and the wife can't wait until my truck's paid off so she can get another (she's dying for stow and go seating!).
--
Steve
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Post #206,021
5/5/05 1:06:30 AM
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Re: Question about car shopping
If you can hold out, your best leverage is at the end of the month, when the sales folks are under massive pressure make their numbers and move cars.
The trick used to be to walk into a dealership and ask for the fleet sales manager, then tell them you want to buy a fleet of one car. Save me a couple of grand once. It might still work.
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Post #206,025
5/5/05 1:25:05 AM
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Get a pickup
Tell the kids to wrap up warm in the winter.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #206,028
5/5/05 1:36:37 AM
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:D
--
Steve
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Post #206,049
5/5/05 7:27:02 AM
5/5/05 7:27:20 AM
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extended cab to keep dog and wife warm :-)
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Edited by jbrabeck
May 5, 2005, 07:27:20 AM EDT
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Post #206,050
5/5/05 7:31:58 AM
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Re: extended cab to keep dog and wife warm :-)
s/and wife//
Someone's gotta sit out back and keep order.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #206,123
5/5/05 3:36:25 PM
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third row?
Try [link|http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31851&item=4548033729&rd=1|this]
-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken
Support our troops, Impeach Bush.
D. D. Richards
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Post #206,127
5/5/05 4:30:59 PM
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Hey, only $18.5k! What a deal!
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Post #206,133
5/5/05 4:53:33 PM
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This is more efficient.
[link|http://stationair.cessna.com/gallery.chtml|As a means of travel, of course.]
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #206,993
5/11/05 9:05:02 PM
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Just tell me that those transistors aren't
WINCE ""controlled""
Y'know?
Well . . .
The loaded one is about same price as a new Bugatti.
And that doesn't operate well in 3-D, so I guess: it's a steal!
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Post #206,997
5/11/05 9:10:02 PM
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thats why my choice is better still uses tubes :-)
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #206,996
5/11/05 9:09:25 PM
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druther have one of these
[link|http://www.yakuk.com/img/AN2-2.jpg|http://www.yakuk.com/img/AN2-2.jpg]
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #207,009
5/11/05 9:27:38 PM
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Looks noisy
These look promising - finally a new airplane design that doesn't look like a warthog.
[link|http://www.cirrusdesign.com/|http://www.cirrusdesign.com/]
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #207,014
5/11/05 9:42:40 PM
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Since we're talking blue sky...
I think I'd like one of [link|http://www.scaled.com/projects/proteus.html|these].
:-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #207,018
5/11/05 9:46:52 PM
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well yours looks pricy :-)
last AN-2 I was thinking about auctioned for 7k. VFR only but wtf.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #207,020
5/11/05 9:48:49 PM
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I'm partial to something more like one of...
[link|http://www.velocityaircraft.com/airabout.html|these]
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #207,021
5/11/05 10:05:34 PM
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45k and you have to assemble it yourself?
thats like buying the unix car. Shoot I could take the plans for a sopwith camel, build that myself and mount a vw bug motor or a suzuki 1200cc motor to it for a lot less. Balsa and fabric and coathangers dont cost that much.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #207,216
5/13/05 2:06:17 AM
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balsa and fabric?
sure, fine if all you want to do is get off the ground and flap a little bit. for that I'd rather have a real glider. Now if you actually want to get in the air and go somewhere, and hey take the family with you (radical, I know), the Velocity is a stylin' way to do that...
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #207,235
5/13/05 8:40:41 AM
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Best construction materials! EVAR!
I always use Balsa as my choice of chassis. Be it a Ultra light or a 18-Wheeler. It is just so... "replaceable"
The fabric, just so nice to be able to do the major body work without having anything other than "Frilly Girly Skills"tm.
Reliability... HA! Who needs that when you have glue and twine! Wait... this is sounding like a Windows Infrastructure.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
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Post #207,058
5/12/05 5:28:01 AM
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Verra nice
Looks like a Vincent Black Shadow VS ... the umm (Cessna) Toyota Corolla.
And enough range to escape across the Canadian border from almost anywhere USA, after Neocon Phase III begins with the roving bands of brown-shirts checkin yer National ID Card (and recent library books / video rentals / web-history / DNA tendencies).
Keep that extra storage compartment full of Euros or other solvent currencies...
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Post #207,297
5/13/05 4:44:37 PM
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Don't forget this one.
230 knots w/fixed gear. Neat trick.
[link|http://www.flycolumbia.com/Aircraft/Columbia400/|http://www.flycolumb...raft/Columbia400/]
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #207,626
5/16/05 1:46:45 PM
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Ah brute force
that'll get her movin.
Thing I find cool about the Cirrus is the parachute recovery system. Apparently it has been used a couple times now and it works. Now if the insurance companies would give them a big discount for the nifty safety feature maybe more of us could afford them.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #207,980
5/18/05 1:12:26 PM
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What I find interesting is ...
the general willingness of pilots to sacrifice useful load for speed (and sometimes not for too much speed). Take, fer instance, the venerable 172. Mine (a 1960) has a useful load of 890 pounds. With full fuel I still have 650 pounds left. But later models (with bigger engines and no great increase in speed) have far less than that. A new one has a book useful load of 830 pounds and with full fuel (on 10 gal/hour burn) is 512 pounds. That's 138 pounds LESS. And the speed difference between the two? Hardly worth mentioning. I know, I know, it's the radios, seats, etc., and 5-8 knots can be huge in cruise speed. But isn't "getting there" all the fun anyway? I find it ironic that you can pay so much to haul so little.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #208,053
5/19/05 2:28:20 AM
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"pay so much to haul so little"
Motorcycles.
Have to be the most efficient means (with an IC engine, etc.) on land. (Not how muvh Bigger were all those roads and mews and alleys in UK, back when alot of their population rode solo, then added a sidecar when the kiddies came. Also their Petrol Bills.
Pity we have yet to see the Real, Useable, Air-Motorcycle (aside from the factor of too many people incompetent to drive such a thing..) And yes, I've seen several snazzy proposals through the years; was once interested in a Benson Gyrocopter (til I read the crash stats and noted the vulnerability of Those rotors.)
But in Principle - Air-cycle could Do It. In nice weather. :-)
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Post #208,095
5/19/05 2:04:13 PM
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Bigger engines don't make planes go faster
they make them climb faster. That's it.
Our club in Pontiac MI had 2 172's. One of them they sent out to get a nice shiny/slippery emron paint job and put in a 180hp engine upgrade. Result? (Apart from the lovely cosmetics of new paint) Much improved climb performance, increased fuel consumption of about 1.5 gph and no net increase in speed.
Similar results were had for an engine upgrade for a SkyVan at an Arizona dropzone. Vastly improved climb rate (which is what you want for a jump plane). But according to pilots, no real improvement in cruise.
I would also add that a stock 172 is pretty much a non-starter someplace like Denver. You need the extra power in the mountains - again for climbing.
If you want to go fast, its all about the airframe and drag reduction. You could add a rocket to a 172 and never get that airframe to VNE in straight and level flight.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #208,098
5/19/05 4:32:14 PM
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s /emron/Imron :-)
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Post #208,107
5/19/05 5:14:21 PM
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Is the problem propeller pitch?
With the same RPM and the same prop, it doesn't matter how many HP you've got. To increase speed you need either higher RPM or steeper pitch. Do engine upgrades typically include new props?
I'm assuming that the smaller planes we've been looking at here have fixed-pitch props. Am I wrong about that?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #208,119
5/20/05 9:50:56 AM
5/20/05 9:53:54 AM
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Yep - new props with more "bite"
Still can't beat the drag on the frame though.
I recall that the upgraded 172 required that you apply power more gradually while building up speed on the runway. Otherwise the prop would "stall" and your takeoff roll would be much prolonged.
I should mention that they stuck with fixed pitch prop for "simplicity". More advanced planes have props that let you vary the pitch and I think you don't upgrade these, you just end up tuning the pitch differently. Pitch is selected based on engine manifold pressure at some rpm.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #208,122
5/20/05 9:56:00 AM
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So the problem is ...
It
sounds like the problem is that a prop of a given diameter can only
generate a certain amount of thrust no matter what pitch and RPM you
use. Once you reach that point, your only options are less drag or a
larger prop. And the larger prop presents ...
interesting issues for take-off and landing.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #208,134
5/20/05 3:28:10 PM
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Hold it.
Are you saying that there is no relation between horsepower and cruise?
I'm not taking issue with what you've said, but I've never heard anyone say there is no relation between horsepower and speed until now. IOW, the fact that a 1960 fixed pitch, 145hp 0-300 172 trues out at 109 knots and a 2004 fixed pitch, 180hp Lycoming 172 trues out at (about) 120 knots is at least partially due to the extra 35 horses. Disagree? If the extra horses ONLY allow you to climb better, why is the service ceiling of the 1960 significantly HIGHER (15,100 compared to 13,500) than the 2004? It take that much more horsepower to raise the extra 250 gross weight?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #208,144
5/20/05 5:31:32 PM
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Re: Hold it.
"Are you saying that there is no relation between horsepower and cruise?"
I'm saying it is weak.
((180-145)/145) * 100% = 24% increase in power
((120-109)/109) * 100% = 10% increase in speed
Not so obvious of a win. To really make power increases count you have to clean up the airframe. For any given airframe, resistance follows a square law. You must square your power to double your speed. Doubling your power will be fairly disappointing experience.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #208,149
5/20/05 5:38:29 PM
|
Agreed.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #208,274
5/23/05 4:56:57 PM
|
Uh, square law = Must *quadruple* power to double speed, no?
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Post #208,279
5/23/05 5:08:31 PM
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Nah, make him try for 21025 hp
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
|
Post #208,291
5/23/05 5:29:29 PM
|
Thing is, if you square it in kW, it makes only 15474.4 hp.
145 * 0.736 = 106.72
106.72 * 106,72 = 11389.1584
11389.1584 / 0.736 = 15474.4
I don't think REAL laws of physics let themselves be influenced by what unit of measurement one applies them in, so I REALLY don't think one's supposed to "square the power".
(Another way to see that that's meaningless is, consider what it's supposed to MEAN. How the heck would you "square" a "power"?!? You know, a distance squared is an area, and so on -- but what IS a "power, squared"?)
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #208,296
5/23/05 5:41:31 PM
|
An 8-legged animal lifting a bucket that grows as it rises?
</reference class="obscure?">
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #208,351
5/24/05 3:28:15 AM
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"Itsy Bitsy Sleipner..." ?
Yep, obscure as Hell. WTFDYM?
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #208,358
5/24/05 8:27:24 AM
|
I think he meant a 16-legged horse lifting a weight...
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Post #208,380
5/24/05 12:58:30 PM
|
Defn: horsepower
The term horsepower originated with James Watt, who determined by experiment that a horse could do 33,000 foot-pounds of work a minute in drawing coal from a coal pit. I remembered it as the horse lifting a bucket via a pulley system. And to get that squared you would need horse * horse[1] and the work would have to increase as it's pulled. [1] When multiplying horses, do you end up with 16 legs, or two horses in an X configuration through the spine? ===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
|
Post #208,489
5/25/05 3:06:30 AM
|
..it's hard to get this stuff across to Fundies_____er, :-\ufffd
|
Post #208,292
5/23/05 5:29:32 PM
|
Turbine ---aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh--- Turbine.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #208,295
5/23/05 5:39:32 PM
|
Power required goes as cube of speed.
[link|http://www.getfaster.com/Techtips/Physics6.html|Linky] of required horsepower to overcome wind resistance using a hypothetical Corvette as an example:
[image|http://www.getfaster.com/BIS/Techtipdata/_8387_tabular103.gif|0|Power needed to overcome wind resistance for a car|63|409]
The force against the air varies as the square of the speed, but the horsepower required gives another factor v, giving the cube relationship.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #208,354
5/24/05 4:51:56 AM
|
"cube of speed" - again, what units? km/h cubed != mph cubed
Be it cubes or squares or whateverthefuck, my point was: What we're interested in here is the cube [or square, etc] of the change in speed (or, IOW, the cube of the ratio of speeds) -- but NOT the "cube of the speed".
My original post was an attempt to correct [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=208144|Todd's "You must square your power to double your speed"]; that's why I talked about squares there. But what I am really trying to say is, it just makes no sense to talk about "squaring" -- or "cubing" -- one's speed or power or something like that; the very concepts of "speed squared", or "power cubed", etc, do not exist. One way to realize this is, try to explain them in plain words.(*)
And words are what I'm talking about: From da Todd's post, it was plain he was misusing them. De Scott, I'm not so sure about; if by "goes as" you're trying to imply that the rates of change on both sides of the equation are related, then you're right... But since you're not explicitly saying, "...goes as cube of speed goes" or "...varies as the square of the speed varies", I'm not so sure. Oh well, never mind...
In general terms, though, the whole category of laws -- "square law" (if that is the correct expression?) -- Todd mentioned means, not "you must square X to double Y", but "you must quadruple X to double Y"; likewise, "a cube law" would mean, not "you must cube X to double Y", but "you must multiply X by eight to double Y. (At least, if what you showed is called "a cube law", then this is how "cube laws" work -- because what you showed works exactly the way I've been saying.)
This is because quadrupling is "the square of doubling", so to speak, and multipling by eight is "the cube of doubling". It is the rate of change that is squared, or cubed or whatever; not the basic measurement itself.
Still clear as mud, or what?
(*): As an example, I can explain "speed": It measures how far you can go in a given amount of time, and therefore it is measured as "distance per time" -- km/h, mph, m/s, etc.
Acceleration: How much faster you're getting over time, hence (distance per time) per time -- (m/s)/s, or whatever units you use.
Area: How big a surface is, which grows linearly with both the length and the width; hence, distance times distance or square foot, square meter, etc.
But "speed squared"?!? WTF is that; it'd be measured in distance-squared per time-squared... So is it some kind of area-acceleration, then, or, uh...?
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #208,357
5/24/05 8:26:00 AM
|
The linky explains all that.
The constant factors in the equation take care of the units. Remember R, the Ideal Gas Constant? It's used in: PV = nRTIt has about eleventy-seven values depending on the system of units you're using - SI (kg, m, s, K) or cgs (g, m, s, K) or US ("lbs", ft, s, F) or ... Similarly, the power needed to overcome the friction due to air is proportional to the cube of the speed. If you measure power in HP and speed in mph, then constant factors in the equation will be different than if you measure power in KW and speed in m/s. But the functional relationship is the same no matter what units you choose - power required varies as the cube of the speed. If it's not clear, then think about finance. The amount of "money" you need to buy a bottle of whiskey at a particular duty-free store doesn't depen on what currency you use. It might be $100 or 10,728.57 Yen. It's the same amount of "money" - just the units change. (Assuming no transaction costs, of course.) Finally, you write: What we're interested in here is the cube [or square, etc] of the change in speed (or, IOW, the cube of the ratio of speeds) -- but NOT the "cube of the speed". No. Starting at 0 and going to 50 mph takes a lot less power than starting from 500 and going to 550 mph. The change is the same, but the power required is very different. The incremental change is much smaller in the latter case too (55/50 vs "50/0"), but the power required is much larger. It really just falls out of the [link|http://www.getfaster.com/Techtips/Physics6.html|equation]: [image|http://www.getfaster.com/BIS/Techtipdata/_8387_tex2html_wrap153.gif|0|Equation for HP to overcome air resistance|37|394] If v is the vehicle speed in miles per hour, then P is in horsepower. The constants in the equation will be different if the units of speed and power are different. Units can be very tricky. E=mc^2 and similar relationships in physics implies all sorts of interconnections between units that can be hard to get ones head around... HTH a bit. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #208,449
5/24/05 7:09:40 PM
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Oh fer cryin out loud (new thread)
Created as new thread #208448 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=208448|Oh fer cryin out loud]
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #208,649
5/26/05 5:02:00 AM
5/26/05 5:49:12 AM
|
Yup.. *bloody* pounds! and feet! + Another formula:
and lbs-wt and lbs-force, ounces, drams, quarts!
(But I thoroughly enjoyed \ufffd/s/d, that octagonal 3-p? and the merchants' Machiavellian means for extracting an extra Shilling: the Guinea! Also.. doing the mileage calc with 5/4 for the 5 qt. Imperial gallon, km/mi vs litres at the pump -- BSF, Whitworth wrenches vs metric or US: all kept little grey cells doing stuff-in-head. Prevents mind-rot.)
I've often wondered if rampant Murican iggerance of the metric system (except in actual science courses; never mind computer-'science') accounts significantly for the current official Dumbth/sec\ufffd acceleration, plus most of the Innumeracy -?- for which we are also deFamed.
Why, even those non-UAV heathen countries -- at least among their whatever %educated -- do not saddle their tykes with Ridiculous archaic BS-units as lead to furlongs/fortnight and the other albatrosses hung about the scrawny necks of our now regularly drugged, I-podded tykes.
BTW, I recall a formula for estimating HP needed at any given speed (corrected for aforementioned Puritan units chaos). 'Twas the mechanical-drawing instructor -remember when ya drew stuff?- who tossed this one out to us freshmen (about the time he demonstrated How the el-cheapo Brownie movie camera outperformed its 'precision-Swiss' competition):
HP = 1.21 (MV/T)
HP = er HP
M = mass in kilopounds [fully Muricanized for assimilation]
V = Velocity of interest, in MPH (speed is scalar; velocity is vector - call it a straight line forward ;-)
T = time [d'oh] for following procedure:
A) Accelerate to (V+5) mph
B) Clutch in (or auto in neutral) and start timer
C) Stop timer when speedo reads (V-5) mph
No STP or rho corrections but reveals surprising things, like that little Corvette chart. Especially: how little HP is needed at modest speeds. Works on motorcycles, I found and as one would suppose. (There - you can change! your A frontal area; sit-up, crouch - note the Different readings - you too can Believe in physics.)
(I have to try this on my new sled in 30 mph increments between 40 and 130, on a next in-car-ceration on a boring Interstate; hmmm.. set cruise to V+5 and kill it, as switch to N and start timer)
Bon appetit
Edit: grey-cells are unsure of the "1.21" constant.. think it more likely than original '1.51' from visceral memory. Order of magnitude is right, and whatever the error in an HP point, the \ufffd law relationship should be ~ demonstrated. (Most are surprised at how little HP is needed at 30-40 mph.)
Edited by Ashton
May 26, 2005, 05:49:12 AM EDT
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Post #208,656
5/26/05 7:45:23 AM
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Neat.
There's probably a [link|http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/Isis/journal/demo/v000n000/000000/000000.text.html|nomograph ][1] of that out there somewhere. Those were amazingly handy at times.
Cheers,
Scott.
[1] Found on Edward Tufte's site, [link|http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0000Bc&topic_id=1|here].
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Post #208,766
5/26/05 9:53:39 PM
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Funny you should mention..
* John Scott Campbell also pushed samples of such into our tiny little nascent minds!
I recall using one of his in several courses, and also making one.. for some silly purpose ot other. But then, when your Only calculator is a K&E log-log-Decitrig and log tables - this is no Big Deal. (Saw a 17-place log table once. Huge tome! Need Reo Speedwagon to cart around for surveying n'such)
Today, however - nomographs could well fill-in a bit, for necessary look-ups by the vastly-innumerate majority. If 'we' were smart enough to hand them out, that is. And if they were smart enough to realize they needed one. And - -
Hmmm - MPG at the gas pump? Naah.. take out the throwaway $3 4-banger.
* (Aforementioned ept, vastly curious and widely read 'drawing' instructor.)
JC possessed a Novachord ~ like a synthesizer; long before there was a decent techno, or even transistors.
Had a prof. Ampex tape recorder - I accompanied it and him to LA Philharmonic to tape the debut of a new pianist. He also wrote an opera for local performance: Spooks in the Basement (..of the Physics Building) (!!!).
Who Says -?- being.. engineerish means: ya gots to be a one-dimensional dork?
(Well, the envious do, but then...)
Dynamic nomograph: 2 nails in a board, with a string around: make ellipses!
Sometimes I miss analyt. geom. - I mean, who ever today has the foggiest what a Latus Rectum might be?
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Post #208,670
5/26/05 10:18:29 AM
|
every redneck with a wrench knows that 14mm=* 9/16ths
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #208,684
5/26/05 11:08:41 AM
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Bah; old-Volvo fans know 14mm wrench will NOT fit 9/16 bolt!
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Post #208,708
5/26/05 2:09:09 PM
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horses duervers! fits just fine
which is what I use all the time as the 9/16th wrenches are dissapeared by the IDunno Bike fixing fairy.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #208,731
5/26/05 4:24:53 PM
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Funny. Either your bolts or your wrenches are off measure.
Since 9/16ths of an inch is about 14.3 mm.
Or maybe your bolt heads aren't 9/16ths at all, but 14 mm.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #208,769
5/26/05 10:09:20 PM
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try 13.8 mm if larger than, it would fit on would it?
most tools of men with children are made in china with the resultant tolerance differences.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #208,791
5/27/05 8:20:07 AM
|
No, IF 13.8 mm were larger than 14 mm then a 14 mm wrench...
...would STILL not fit on a "13.8 mm" bolt-head. Or what the FUCK were you trying to say?!? For once, your body text was much clearer than the headline. Too bad the headline was total gibberish...
Yeah, sure, it COULD be that your el-cheapo Chinese tools(*) have such humongously sloppy "tolerance differences" that a nominally "14 mm" wrench would fit on a 9/16" (14,2875 mm) bolt-head. Or maybe your bolts are Chinese too -- WTF do I know (or care)...
Anyway, that's what I frigging SAID -- "Either your bolts or your wrenches are off measure" -- before, isn't it? So, uhmm... What the fucking fuck are you objecting to here???
(*) BTW, haven't you ever heard the old saying, "the poor man can't afford to buy cheap"?
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #208,411
5/24/05 2:24:29 PM
5/24/05 2:27:03 PM
|
OT: Hey CRC I'm looking for you in Open Forum
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=208265|Translation]
edit: pointed link to start of thread
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Edited by jbrabeck
May 24, 2005, 02:27:03 PM EDT
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Post #207,003
5/11/05 9:21:48 PM
|
Lemme guess - still no flush rivets
Cessna's airframes are second only to the piper cub in drag.
I'd rather have a Cherokee 6.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #207,004
5/11/05 9:22:09 PM
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If both endpoints are airports...
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #207,007
5/11/05 9:24:24 PM
|
on mine you just need 170 meters of low grass.
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #206,142
5/5/05 6:32:54 PM
|
NO, No, No....
Drew already has the Lincoln in the Driveway.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
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Post #206,440
5/7/05 5:39:07 PM
|
Why "besides the front row"? Some weird Yank taboo...?
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Post #206,442
5/7/05 5:47:50 PM
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"Air bags" are known to kill small passengers.
[link|http://www.ou.edu/oupd/kidseat.htm|Link].
Alex
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #206,501
5/8/05 2:10:16 PM
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Typical; "Why do the smart thing, when you can buy a tank?"
Sigh...
Just because a rear facing safety-seat in the front is proven to be the safest way to transport kids is no reason not to fuck that up with a stupid air-bag that can't be shut off, now is it?
Idunno what happened to those (proposed?) standard child safety seats with air-bag-disabling keys mounted on them; probably nobody does it any more, because the fucking car manufacturers quit mounting contacts for the keys to slot into.
So yeah, let's all buy six-ton trucks with at least eight rows of seats in stead.
That's so much smarter, isn't it?
:-(
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #206,514
5/8/05 3:50:55 PM
|
Middle seat in the back is safest, HTH!
At least, everything my wife and I have ever read about the subject has stated this.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #206,530
5/8/05 5:18:45 PM
|
So, neither of you have read "Garp", I take it...?
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Post #206,532
5/8/05 5:20:49 PM
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Ouch.
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Post #206,534
5/8/05 5:29:05 PM
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Yeah, well... And it HAD to be a friggin PV 544, dinnit? :-(
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Post #206,547
5/8/05 8:24:17 PM
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Nope.
I tend to get my safety information from, well, safety information.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #206,586
5/9/05 1:54:12 AM
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Yeah, well... *American* "safety information", you mean?
|
Post #206,601
5/9/05 9:33:10 AM
|
As opposed to "Garp"...?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #206,579
5/9/05 12:58:03 AM
|
You wanna get sued?
This is the country where motorcyclists (or their heirs) sue helmet manufacturers for injuries sustained while wearing helmets with the straps undone. And win. If it is possible to misuse a safety device, the first person injured while misusing it will sue and usually win. That's why products ...
Wait. Do products over there always come with warning stickers advising you not to perform specific un-natural acts with the product? Or are we the only ones with that priveledge? Things like, "CAUTION: Contents extremely flammable." On a cigarette lighter. Well wouldn't you fucking well hope so!
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #206,585
5/9/05 1:53:32 AM
|
Yeah, lots of stuff comes with those stickers nowadays.
I assume it's because they sell the exact same stuff in the USA; it's easier to slap the same stickers on every piece, than to keep track of which stickers to put on for which market.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
|
