This is the same "small is beautiful" crap . . .

Post #202,414 by Andrew Grygus 4/8/05 3:27:55 AM Reply	This is the same "small is beautiful" crap . . . . . I've been reading for over 40 years. I remember a "small is beautiful" book by one Kirkpatric Sale who proposed that local factories could switch from making bicycles (after enough bicycles were made for local consumption) to making light bulbs, and then to baking bread or something. This is pure intellectual jacking off without the slightest hint of experience in the subject. This guy sounds a lot the same. Further, Sale's "small is beautiful" book was at least 600 pages and could have easily been condensed to 40 pages or less and consumed one hell of a lot less energy and biomass - and wasted a whole lot less of my time. Idiot. Yes, there will be major adjustments. No, they will not be anything like anyone expects. First of all, this country's energy consumption could be dropped by 50% in short order with minimal pain if the price went up enough - 75% with a little pain. And energy? It'll be like when the Hunt brothers tried to corner the silver market. When the price went over a particular point, silver just ooozed out of the walls from everywhere and the Hunts got a margine call they couldn't answer (and a bunch of Saudi princes backing them got a lot less princely). Yes, megacorps and the very rich they support will suffer, and many will crumble. Some others won't. If you're young, invest in railroads. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #202,438 by andread 4/8/05 9:18:05 AM Reply	Which 75% is that? Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #202,450 by Andrew Grygus 4/8/05 10:23:23 AM Reply	That's for economics to decide. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #202,460 by andread 4/8/05 11:33:32 AM Reply	How about listing your 75% Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #202,468 by Andrew Grygus 4/8/05 1:07:50 PM Reply	I am already about 50% of average American . . . . so I'd only have to go around 25%. I could cut electrical usage to about 25% of current without any real pain and my water usage, while way below average suburban household (no lawn sprinklers) is kept deliberately high so I can give up the required percentage during drought without suffering. I could also reduce non-business driving substantially (and I already have a 30 foot commute). I don't have to do all my share personally, because a percentage of savings in the public and business sectors will accrue to my acount. There will be substantial savings in the public sector (turning off street lights, etc.) and reduction in highway maintenance as truck traffic falls. Transportation of goods will take more patience as airplanes and trucks yield to much less expensive rail, ship and barge. The energy to roll steel wheels on steel rails is a small fraction of the energy it takes to roll rubber tires on asphalt, the maintanance is far less and the latest locomotives use far less fuel the previous generation did. Basically, savings and energy sources will be seeping out of everywhere once the cost rises sufficiently. Exactly where is impossible to predict now due to the law of unexpected consequences. New businesses will appear in unexpected ways as current businesses crumble. It's difficult for one person to make the neccessary adjustment (though some have), but when the entire society starts adapting to the situation it'll be easier for the individual. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #202,483 by JayMehaffey 4/8/05 2:07:32 PM Reply	Adaptable to other power sources. Transportation of goods will take more patience as airplanes and trucks yield to much less expensive rail, ship and barge. The energy to roll steel wheels on steel rails is a small fraction of the energy it takes to roll rubber tires on asphalt, the maintanance is far less and the latest locomotives use far less fuel the previous generation did. Trains and ships are also far more adaptable to other power sources. If oil prices really sky rocket, coal power may come back for trains and ships. Switching back to sail power might even become a viable option for deep water shipping. Though that would take very high energy costs before it balance out the increased crew costs and inherent uncertainty of travel speeds. Jay
Post #202,492 by ben_tilly 4/8/05 2:31:19 PM Reply	Very, very high costs As things stand now, shipping is significantly cheaper than any other transportation option. Therefore even when cars and trains are ruinously expensive, shipping may still seem fairly reasonable. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #202,501 by tuberculosis 4/8/05 3:06:19 PM Reply	The future of shipping Nifty article on some efforts to re-invent sailing ships. [link\|http://www.newscientist.com/channel/mech-tech/mg18524881.600\|http://www.newscient...ch/mg18524881.600] [link\|http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2005/02/hybrids-hybrid-boats-hybrid-ships-and.html\|http://alt-e.blogspo...id-ships-and.html] THE coming of steam sent the world's great sailing fleets into decline. The internal combustion engine finally finished them off. So it would be a strange twist of fate if the age of sail was resurrected by what amounts to a child's toy. For several weeks last summer, a team of German engineers sailed back and forth across the Baltic Sea playing with a large inflatable kite. The engineers, from the Hamburg company SkySails, were testing the potential of high-tech kites to pull a ship across the ocean by hitching a ride on winds high above the waves. ---- "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #202,507 by Another Scott 4/8/05 3:32:16 PM 4/8/05 7:38:58 PM Reply	I have recollection of a Japanese freighter like that. Sometime in the late '70s or early '80s there was a research program in Japan on using sails on large freighters or tankers as an assist. I haven't been able to find it in Google though... [edit:] [link\|http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/current_sail.html\|Here] is a little information on previous attempts. [link\|http://www.vims.edu/GreyLit/SeaGrant/vmrb14-3.pdf\|This] also discusses some earlier efforts: Although certain larger vessels just over 200 feet in length are experimenting with sail-assist (the 3,000 DWT Greek cargo ship MINI LACE and the 1,600 DWT Japanese motor tanker SHIN AITOKU MARU -both discussed at the conference), the most immediate adaptation of the concept seems to be better suited for smaller vessels. Overall investment to either retrofit or design and construct really large vessels for sail assist would be so great, most conferees agreed, as to limit a quick response to the sail-assist alternative. However, Wind Ship Development Corporation's award-winning retrofit sail design for the MINI LACE appears to be providing the vessel enough fuel savings that a reasonable payback period will result. A paper with pictures is [link\|http://www.nmri.go.jp/trans/Staff/fujiwara/ISOPE03_fujiwara.pdf\|here]. Cheers, Scott. Edited by Another Scott April 8, 2005, 07:38:58 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #202,522 by Andrew Grygus 4/8/05 6:04:32 PM Reply	It is natural that German interest in sail continues . . . . . because they were far more successful at it than any other country. Most late 19the century saling ships caried about 800 tons at about 4.5 knots. The largest of the German sailing ships caried 8000 tons at about 11 knots and needed a smaller crew. Whereas the clipper ship Cutty Sark (900 tons capacity) made one trip a year around the world downwind all the way (thus is not credited with a Cape Horn passage - you had to do it upwind), the Germans routinely went from Hamburg to Valpareso Chile around the Horn both ways. One German captain was in Valparaso three times during the same year and two trips a year was routine. The English had a policy (outside of wartime) of having channel packets "accidently" ram German sailing ships to disable them whenever they could. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #202,529 by tuberculosis 4/8/05 6:31:10 PM Reply	More successful than everybody except the US [link\|http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Ships/Clippers/Flying_Cloud(1851).html\|http://www.bruzelius..._Cloud(1851).html] Flying Cloud was the most successful sailing ship ever - breaking the record around the horn on her maiden voyage despite being dismasted twice enroute. Her maiden voyage paid for the vessel. She broke her own record 3 years later which stood until 1989 and then it required a high tech light weight catamaran with no cargo capability. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #202,545 by Andrew Grygus 4/8/05 7:34:20 PM Reply	Cargo capacity? Reliability? The clipper ships were fast, it is true, built for the gold rush. As in this case, the survivors were cut down because they were too fragile. They were not practical for general trade because they required too large a crew and too much maintenance and didn't have enough cargo capacity. Basically they were oversize yachts. Most were scrapped after only a few years and others were used mainly for special runs. Average late 19th century German freighters hauled over 5 times the cargo with about 1/2 the crew and were still not that far behind in speed (though their voyages averaged much longer distance). The record for a Cape Horn passage (40 south to 40 south upwind) was set by a freight hauler at 4-1/2 days (average for British and American ships was about 2 weeks). The logs were examined carefully by other German captains because it was taking them 5 to 6 days on average. The safety record was vastly better than either the British or American shipping, with ships lost very seldom and crews lost almost never. Crews were well paid and well fed. The objective of American captains was generally to run out of food completely several days before arrival at the destination. The German advantages were gained by great size, all steel construction and winching systems by which 2 boys could tack a freighter in just a few minutes - and a 100 year statistical study of where the strongest winds could be found at various times in the year, because that's the winds these ships were built for. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #202,548 by tuberculosis 4/8/05 9:46:35 PM Reply	Stats are here This is all I could find on the German ships. The very largest (Flying Cloud was not the largest of her class, but was notably the fastest and arguably the most commercially successful as she paid for herself more than ten times over). [link\|http://www.caphorniers.cl/preussen/ships_valpo.htm\|http://www.caphornie...n/ships_valpo.htm] The \ufffdPREUSSEN\ufffd (PRUSSIA) was launched in Geestem\ufffdnde in 1902. This vessel had a displacement of 11,150 tons and her hatches could hold 8,000 tons of nitrate (62,000 sacks). This quantity of nitrate was sufficient to fertilize 40,000 hectares of land or provide gunpowder for a whole German army corps. The \ufffdPREUSSEN\ufffd was entirely steel built, and has been the only entirely square-rigged sailing ship. She measured 133.5 meters long and 16.4 in breadth. She carried 48 sails with a surface of 59,000 square feet. Her mainmast measured 68 meters and utilized 13,000 meters of steel cable. Winches, hoists and pumps were worked by mechanized winches and she was possibly the first vessel of her class equipped with wireless telegraphy. Compared with Flying Cloud: L/B/D: 235 \ufffd 40.8 \ufffd 21.3 (71.6m \ufffd 12.4m \ufffd 6.5m). Tons: 1,782 om. Interestingly, The \ufffdPREUSSEN\ufffd seems to have only survived 13 voyages. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #202,560 by Andrew Grygus 4/8/05 10:33:55 PM 4/8/05 10:37:26 PM Reply	Preussen was rammed by an English channel packet . . . . (almost certainly deliberately) breaking enough rigging to make it difficult to handle and it was driven onto a sand bar. It was carrying a load of pianos for South America at the time. The ship was so large and heavy tug boats sufficient to pull it free were unavailable. I do not know if the pianos were salvaged. I have one book which includes a story by a young sailor who later became a writer. He was on a ship that normally traded from England to Africa, but cargos were scarce so they took a cargo to Argentina. On the way back they had a week of absolutely perfect wind, the most the ship could stand up to. A white object was spotted on the horizon behind them which at first they though was the Sydney mail steamer, the only thing they knew that could be coming on that fast. 2 hours later it had disappeared over the horizon in front of them. As the ship passed, the crew, completely unaware of this class of ship, just stood by the rail in stunned silence. It was like a ghost ship with only one person seen on deck, and looked like it was out for a Sunday sail on the sound - obviously not strained to the limit as their ship was. Their ship was carrying 800 tons at about 5-1/2 knots. Preussen was carrying 8000 tons at about 15 knots. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus April 8, 2005, 10:37:26 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #202,577 by tuberculosis 4/9/05 12:03:02 AM Reply	Thanks, I've got a new sailing topic to read up on "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #202,554 by boxley 4/8/05 10:11:03 PM Reply	even more interest in lighter than aircraft although a zepp isnt nearly as fast as a jet, the cargo capacity is much higher and a lot less fuel to push it around. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #202,578 by tuberculosis 4/9/05 12:07:13 AM Reply	Here's a wacky twist on that [link\|http://www.gizmag.com/go/3060/\|http://www.gizmag.com/go/3060/] The "Gravity-Plane", as Hunt Aviation likes to call it, uses gravity's dual properties - buoyancy which creates an upward motion in order to gain altitude, and gravity acceleration which creates a forward and downward gliding motion. The two motions combined form the heart of Hunt's new gravity powered technology, a technology that will most certainly make for a much healthier and cleaner environment. While everyone can understand the downward motion of the "pull of gravity", it is buoyancy that many people do not realise is a force of gravity. A force which when harnessed properly makes sustained flight possible. -------- Basically a big airship/glider which floats up and then glides down. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #202,581 by drewk 4/9/05 12:26:28 AM 4/9/05 12:39:52 AM Reply	Old friend on that page [link\|http://www.gizmag.com/go/2504/\|http://www.gizmag.com/go/2504/] Oh, and a comment about the gravity plane. This sounds like the same concept being considered for a submersible to be sent to the moons of Jupiter. It would use the bouyancy of the water to rise and coast, similar to the description of the gravity plane. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com] Edited by drewk April 9, 2005, 12:39:52 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #202,595 by Ashton 4/9/05 5:11:37 AM Reply	Yup, Doug Marker had/has some connections to the project. Still waiting for my ride at Santa Rosa airport. Sometime. But I think [link\|http://www.gizmag.com/go/3280/\| this] is where we motorcyclists would gravitate. Just a matter of time...
Post #202,502 by SpiceWare 4/8/05 3:09:41 PM Reply	Re: Which 75% is that? My S2000 gets 20/25. The Honda Insight(another 2 seater) gets 60/66 which would drop my transportation energy use to 1/3rd what it is today. While not 1/4th, it's quite close and I suspect will get even better as battery technology improves(like the recently announced [link\|http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/batteries/oxyride.asp\|Oxyride]). Fluorescent bulbs use 33% the energy of incandescent. LED traffic signals use [link\|http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=traffic.pr_traffic_signals\|10%] the energy of traditional traffic lights, I suspect white LED lights for the home will be similiar. Heating and Cooling are the tough ones to cut back on. I suspect we'll be keeping internal temps higher in the summer and lower in the winter than we currently do. [link\|http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm\|EnergyStar] shows lots of other ways to cut back, Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #203,574 by SpiceWare 4/16/05 12:42:30 PM Reply	Info on white LEDs [link\|http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2005-04-14-led-lighting_x.htm\|LED evolution could spell the end for light bulbs] Just this week, researchers at the Lighting Research Center at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y., said they had boosted the light output per watt of a white LED to almost six times that of an incandescent light bulb, beating even a compact fluorescent bulb in efficiency. The current generation of mass-produced white LEDs is not as effective. It's about twice as good as a light bulb of the same wattage, but the energy savings aren't enough to overcome the major drawback of being expensive. ... But development is brisk, and the Department of Energy has estimated that LED lighting could cut national energy consumption for lighting by 29% by 2025. The total savings on U.S. household electric bills until then would be $125 billion. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #202,480 by ben_tilly 4/8/05 1:58:37 PM Reply	Just because people have been predicting doom forever... doesn't mean that it won't happen soon. But it does incline one towards justified cynicism. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

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