Post #184,309
11/17/04 8:41:34 AM
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Marine executes wounded unarmed prisoners
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55412-2004Nov16.html|U.S. Commander in Iraq Calls Shooting 'Tragic']
"The videotape shows a squad of Marines entering a mosque strewn with debris where at least five wounded Iraqis are lying against a wall. One of the Marines begins shouting obscenities, saying one of the wounded men is feigning death. He then lifts his rifle and fires.
"He's dead now," a Marine is heard saying. "
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Post #184,313
11/17/04 9:06:51 AM
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s/prisoner/DEADLY ASSAILANT OF FREEDOM AND TRUTH/
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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Post #184,362
11/17/04 5:58:29 PM
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feller doing the shooting was shot in the face
a day earlier by another "quote" wounded Iraqi, chances are he's pissed and not taking chances. The Iraqi's are also doing the time old booby trapping of wounded and dead.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #184,389
11/18/04 2:51:02 AM
11/18/04 2:51:48 AM
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Excuses, excuses, excuses
Now that it is US troops doing the fighting suddenly you have all kinds of excuses about why these things are not so bad and understandable. Imagine if instead that was a picture of an Israeli soldier shooting a Palestinian. Would anyone make excuses that Palestinians are boobytrapping bodies etc? I guarantee you that the US State Department would have denounced the action, the UN Security Council would be called to an emergency session etc. Think back to 2002 and Jenin, what was the reaction of the world including the US? Suddenly you see how it is not so easy to fight a war against people who don't follow the same rules as you.
Edited by bluke
Nov. 18, 2004, 02:51:48 AM EST
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Post #184,413
11/18/04 11:33:52 AM
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What are you looking for?
If the US were >really< pissed off at Israel you'd be in trouble. As it stands, a memo from state is alot better than the removal of financial and military support.
Some of the tactics used lately >deserved< that memo from state. Noone said anything about the battle being easy.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #184,414
11/18/04 11:46:08 AM
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And the tactics in Falluja don't????
I am looking for an end to the hypocrisy where the US goes around criticizing everyone and then does whatever it wants. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
IMHO Israel would be much better off getting no money from the US. The economy is strong enough to do without the money and it would make Israel less dependent.
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Post #184,415
11/18/04 11:53:38 AM
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Israel has very few friends
And incidents, such as with [link|http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6517553/|the Egyptians] today, means that you better use the few friends you have to maximum effect.
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Post #184,417
11/18/04 12:07:36 PM
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And therefore what
The US has certainly been a friend to Israel, there is no argument here. My point was that teh US is acting in a very hypocritical manner.
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Post #184,419
11/18/04 12:21:28 PM
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And they would argue...
...that they are doing this to assist in the timely transition of interim government...and are doing so at the request of the acting government.
And before everyone gets all huffy...I do realize that is a bullshit response insofar as we placed the interim government in power in the first place.
Dude, we're hypocritical in the mid-east every time we change an administration. Why are you in here of all places pining for this group to realize something that we all already know?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #184,424
11/18/04 1:16:39 PM
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The U.S. has always been hypocritical
They apply one standard to Israel and another to the rest of the mideast. Of course, if we really wanted to make friends in the MidEast, all we'd have to do is pull the rug out and pass an economic blockade against Israel in the security council.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the U.S. has taken a hard line against Israel. What I always hear from the State Dept is (a) Israel should be cautious and sensitive; and (b) Israel has a right to defend itself. That line basically means the U.S. does nothing to try and stop the Israelis - including in Jenin.
As for the current context, I for one dislike the response from those that are trying to justify the soldiers actions. If the soldiers do not have discipline, then they are not a military force. It doesn't really matter whether we can justify it to ourselves, the effect on Arab opinion is already set in concrete. What matters from our perspective is simply whether the soldier defied orders in how to handle situations in armed conflict. Court martial his ass if he did. If the problem is more systematic, then Court Martial those involved in issuing the orders.
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Post #184,416
11/18/04 12:05:37 PM
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The US is very arrogant
I say this as someone who was born in the US and grew up there and will always think of myself as an American.
The US acts like the pigs in Animal Farm, everyone is equal but some are more equal then others. For example, nuclear weapons are bad and we can't let country x get them, but we will maintain our arsenal of thousands of nuclear weapons and in fact develop new ones.
Suddenly when the US is fighting a war against Islamic militants everything is allowed. Contrast Jenin and Falluja. In Jenin, Israel did not use heavy weapons out of consideration for civilians, yet what was the reaction of the US and the world? What is the US doing in Falluja?
After Abu Ghraib all I heard was how Abu Ghraib doesn't represent America. Now I am sure we will hear that the Marines who killed unarmed wounded Iraqis also don't represent America. So who does represent America?
People in the US think that the US is the model of democracy. In fact, the US has become a model for how not to run a democracy. Elections for the US have become a joke. Over 90% of elections for the House were not really contested because of gerrymandering. The Senate is not much better. We all know the problems with the electoral college.
The US is headed for a big fall, the budget and trade deficits are unsustainable, and the war in Iraq is draining away a lot of money. When it happens don't expect anyone around the world to be sympathetic.
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Post #184,418
11/18/04 12:13:26 PM
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ROFL -
I'm not sympathetic.
And - the world should FEAR the fall of the Republic. What comes next is EMPIRE.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #184,420
11/18/04 12:24:05 PM
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I won't expect symapthy.
But I do expect pining for the days when we paid for everything. Where do you think that capital is gonna come from next...France?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #184,640
11/20/04 10:07:49 PM
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er..nitpick...
The US is very arrogant The current administration is very arrogant. I'll note with some humor that complaints with the current adminisration are a couple of weeks late. The US is headed for a big fall, the budget and trade deficits are unsustainable, and the war in Iraq is draining away a lot of money. When it happens don't expect anyone around the world to be sympathetic I expect just under half the country to be unsympathetic as well.
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Post #184,646
11/20/04 10:23:51 PM
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I think the US is arrogant
The vast majority of us, red or blue or other.
That arrogance has been drilled into our society, taught to most of us from childhood.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #184,647
11/20/04 10:25:38 PM
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s /US/human race/
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Post #184,445
11/18/04 6:11:39 PM
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eh? personally I think Israel should have long ago
emptied out the hospices and cancer wards, strapped em full of dynamite and sent them into the markets of the west bank and gaza. I think I mentioned that about the time the second homicide bomb went off. During and around 9/11 I was praying that my family would not be hurt because it would personally obligate me to return the favor on a mass scale, dont think it was excuses I was offering, just solid reasoning.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #184,387
11/18/04 12:07:07 AM
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Saw a grab from US TV.
Someone (Rush Limbaugh?) made the point that the media is painting the marine as the bad guy and the wounded insurgent as the good guy...
The same (local) program also showed another group of marines encounter an occupied building. The insurgents were requested to surrender or be killed. They would not surrender. The marines killed them.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #184,429
11/18/04 2:53:43 PM
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"All considered hostile"
Of interest is the blog of [link|http://www.kevinsites.net/|Kevin Sites], the embedded reporter of the film in question. If nothing else, it's an interesting account of the battle. "Everything to the west is weapons free," radios Staff Sgt. Sam Mortimer of Seattle, Washington. Weapons Free means the marines can shoot whatever they see -- it's all considered hostile.
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Post #184,809
11/22/04 1:47:41 PM
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More from the camera man
A good explanation of the events leading up to and the aftermath of the shooting given by [link|http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6556034/|Kevin Sites]. Some have been villifying the cameraman and this is a well thought out response.
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Post #184,863
11/23/04 10:22:32 AM
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Even the shooter realized he did something wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
At that point the Marine who fired the shot became aware that I was in the room. He came up to me and said, "I didn't know sir, I didn't know." The anger that seemed present just moments before turned to fear and dread.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I can't help but say that even at our worst, we're still better...
(Yeah yeah yeah, the obvious "he was sorry he was caught on tape". Not the way it feels to me, folks.)
--
This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet.
-- [link|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx|The] Daily WTF
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Post #184,865
11/23/04 11:07:17 AM
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"We didn't know the camps were there."
Is what it sounds like to me.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #184,878
11/23/04 1:10:03 PM
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From a camp guard? I don't think so.
I think the Marine just cracked. Too much strain. And when he realized that he shot a prisoner, he was terrified.
--
This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet.
-- [link|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx|The] Daily WTF
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Post #184,909
11/23/04 8:05:19 PM
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Yes. Terrified of being caught.
Look, I'm not there. I've never been in a militia of any sort, let alone been in combat. I've always hoped that if I were ever in such a condition that I wouldn't lose my humanity. But, WTF? We've got a Secretary of Defense and a President who thinks the Geneva Convention has outlasted its value. In short, the highest offices in our country have decreed, and the people embraced this notion as well by voting for them, that there are no rules.
The exclusive purpose of any militia is to kill and destroy enemy property. That is the only reason they exist, their raison d'etre if you will. Don't let the ads fool you - everything the militia (any militia, not just ours) does it does to further the efficiency of killing and destruction. That's why I never volunteered.
Maybe you're right, maybe the murderer had some thread of humanity left within him that caused him to feel some remorse, albeit far too late. I don't know. But I think it vastly more likely that what really caused him to suddenly find some humanity had far more to do with the fact that he was "caught on tape" than anything else. He was trained to kill without remorse. He killed without remorse. Are we surprised?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #184,917
11/23/04 9:53:06 PM
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NOT militia. Militia is NOT Military.
[link|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Militia|Look it up]. These are professional soldiers.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #184,919
11/23/04 9:58:21 PM
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The president and the S.o.D.
may have repudiated Geneva Convention. The entire Armed Forces did not. I've been reading military blogs a lot. They teach law of combat the same way they teach tactics and weapons - it's pervasive. That Marine was not trained to kill without remorse. He was trained to kill within the framework of discipline. And that includes Geneva.
Any former military around here - am I off the mark? I never served, so I am just talking from the words of others.
(As an aside, you believe in Goodness of Humanity, but you find it hard to believe that an essentially good man under extreme stress just slipped)
--
This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet.
-- [link|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx|The] Daily WTF
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Post #184,938
11/24/04 8:44:07 AM
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I think you are spot on
Prisoner handling was drilled into us over and over. I agree this guy probably snapped. *Probably*. You don't shoot the wounded, you don't mistreat prisoners. Aside from being humane there are two very practical reasons not to do that. You don't want you're own wounded shot out of hand by the enemy or have your own prisoners mistreated by them. (A slim hope in this quagmire) The other is you can't get any good intel from a corpse.
-----------------------------------------
How do you convince a Washington Journalist that you're not slapping him in the face?
Tell him you're not.
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Post #184,940
11/24/04 9:17:10 AM
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Deja Vu?
>"...this guy probably snapped. *Probably*. "
From Wikpedia: [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre|http://en.wikipedia....i/My_Lai_massacre]
"...Having lost a well-liked sergeant to a trap days earlier, the soldiers were angry.
...
"The soldiers found no insurgents in the village on the morning of March 16, 1968, although they had been psychologically prepared for a major attack. While under the command of Lt. William Calley, the soldiers killed hundreds of civilians \ufffd primarily old men, women, children, and babies. Some were tortured or raped. Dozens were herded into a ditch and executed with automatic weapons"
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Post #184,918
11/23/04 9:56:36 PM
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Finding someone to blame.
There is something in the human psyche that equates an untimely death with a criminal act. Put another way, if someone is killed, there is someone responsible. And they must pay.
This story is an example of that. But I was strongly reminded of that by an old episode of CSI I saw last night. In it, a family staged a kidnapping of their 4 month old baby because their 3 year old son had accidently smothered him with an oven mitt. They're line of thinking was that because there was an untimely death, someone was going to be punished. They had a great deal of trouble understanding that it was just an accident and that no-one was to blame and no-one needed to be charged with the deed.
This incident with the marine is similar. Accidents happen. There is not always someone to blame.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #184,920
11/23/04 9:59:48 PM
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Accidental execution?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #184,921
11/23/04 10:06:16 PM
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I meant a possible errant decision made in haste.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #184,922
11/23/04 10:20:36 PM
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I wouldn't classify it as an accident....
but then again, I don't understand this blaming of the soldier thing either.
Shrug. He shoots him because he believes he's a danger. This is bad, considering we lobbed in morters and rockets and killed indiscriminately?
Did I miss something, because I haven't seen the left blasting this guy either. I mean, this is war and in wars people die. It wasn't like this guy was waving a white flag with his hands over his head or anything.
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Post #184,927
11/23/04 11:08:16 PM
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The IDF has a term for it - "verification of the kill".
Haaretz: [link|http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/504879.html|"Officer on tape says he `confirmed kill' of Gaza girl"]: An indictment was handed down in the Southern Command's Military Court yesterday against Captain R., a Givati company commander accused of illegally using his weapon to kill 13-year-old Imam al Hamas, a Palestinian girl who was on her way to school near the Girit outpost in southern Gaza.
o o o
Channel Two's documentary show Fact broadcast last night the army communications network tape recording of the real-time events, including videotape, in which R. is heard explicitly stating he "verified the kill." The tape showed that the soldiers at the outpost kept firing at the girl even after she had been identified by soldiers as "about 10 years old."
o o o
"The accused stood similarly to the way he stood when he shot her twice - pointed his weapon downward and shot, this time on automatic, approximately 10 bullets until he emptied his magazine," the indictment says. It is not known whether the girl was already dead when he shot her. At the time, Palestinian hospital officials said the girl was shot at least 15 times, mostly in the upper body. Some people are just supposed to be dead. Alex
In politics, what begins in fear usually ends in folly. -- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, poet (1772-1834)
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