Post #172,859
9/6/04 3:23:49 PM
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Answer:
What kind of brain dead idiot TAKES AWAY a continue statement in a language and tell you that to simulate it you can label the end of the loop and use a GOTO? The kind of brain-dead idiot who designs a language specifically for use by other brain-dead idiots? Run away from VB. Run very fast. It's beneath you. ;)
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Post #172,860
9/6/04 3:25:21 PM
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VB is not a Programming Language, it's a Product.
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Post #172,863
9/6/04 4:14:48 PM
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So if I WAS to fight, again, what are my alternatives?
Keep in mind I've been coding on Perl (essentially Perl 4) for the last 10 years. Before that I coded in C.
It needs to:
Have a RAD development environment
Run under windows
Speak to databases
Speak to networks
Have some presence on programmer resumes
Not have a cost for distributing the end results
Have a quick learning curve for some initial wins to prove it out
Suggestions again?
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Post #172,865
9/6/04 4:36:14 PM
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Rython ror Rerl ror Reecee-ell ror a rombo of rall rhree ;
Or not in Scooby-doese
Python or Perl or Tcl or a combo of all three.
From Active State for commercial support or not. Since it is Perl, python and tcl.
Active [link|http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePerlFamily/?_x=1|Perl], [link|http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePythonFamily/?_x=1|Python]. [link|http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActiveTclFamily/?_x=1|Tcl]
[link|http://www.python.org/windows/|Python for Windows] and the [link|http://www.python.org/download/|the download location]
[link|http://www.tcl.tk/software/tcltk/|Tcl for Windows and other OS] and the [link|http://www.tcl.tk/software/tcltk/downloadnow84.tml|Download instruction]. The Binary for Windows is Active State Tcl.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
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Post #172,867
9/6/04 4:45:03 PM
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TCL - Never!!!!
Worse than BASIC to me.
Last time I looks at AS Perl it felt like a hack. The GUI port felt like a bag on the side. Maybe I didn't give it enough time.
Python is probably worth a look. But if I was really learning a new OO language I'd want to do Ruby. Oh well.
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Post #172,881
9/6/04 7:51:30 PM
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Careful what you ask for...
[link|http://rubyinstaller.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl|You might just get it!]
[link|http://rubyforge.org/frs/?group_id=167|More specifically the download]
Sheesh... Pokey today?
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
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Post #172,964
9/7/04 2:40:14 PM
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I see you ignored the previous. Barry
You asked for it, I showed it to you...
Bahaha.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
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Post #172,975
9/7/04 3:34:48 PM
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Who says?
I downloaded it, installed, and have started reading the manual on my laptop.
That doesn't mean I'm going to give up what I have produced so far. It is deployable right now. And I am in the process of rewriting it in C# as we speak.
I consider the Ruby more of a long term thing for me to wrap my mind around. I'd have to fight for a non-MS solution right now. C# is an easy sell. So if I take a day to rewrite in C#, since the tools and functions map to the VB I just did, it is an immediate win.
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Post #172,970
9/7/04 2:54:32 PM
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Come on, TCL and BASIC are as far apart
as two procedural languages can be (ok, Fortran and Lisp are further apart, but you're not likely to use either, and Lisp is not procedural).
TCL has (almost) no syntax. That alone makes it worthy of respect. BASIC is all syntax. Bleech.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #172,973
9/7/04 3:16:37 PM
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Lisp is not procedural??
Lisp can be used in as procedural a way as you want. Just use setq for assignment.
You don't have to use it that way. Many people don't. But you can.
:-P
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #172,977
9/7/04 3:56:42 PM
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Parenthetically speaking that is. :)
Alex
"If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -- Philip K. Dick, US science fiction writer
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Post #172,869
9/6/04 5:13:52 PM
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C# is a better match
As stated elsewhere VB != VB.Net. You can not take for granted that a VB6 or earlier programmer can translate their experience to VB.Net. They are different in both syntax as well as the libraries and tools that are available.
If you are headed in the .Net direction, I think C# makes for a better long term strategy. If you can't handle C# as a programming language, you're probably not gonna be too successful as a VB.Net programmer either. The environment may make pretenses of language neutrality, but the language that makes the best fit is the one that it is created around.
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Post #172,874
9/6/04 6:15:02 PM
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ObCRC: Delphi
:-)
Apparently Delphi and/or C# Builder are easier for VB6 developers to get their heads around than VB.Net or C#. A comparison of Delphi and C# language/runtime features is [link|http://distribucon.com/blog/archive/2004/04/26/178.aspx|here].
But, IIRC, earlier you ruled out Delphi earlier because you felt it didn't have enough market share.
It seems to me that if you are worried about market share on Win32, then you need to go with a MS solution, maybe with an appropriate 3rd-party addon. Unless things have changed though, MS's tools have usually had some stupid limitiations that required writing your own low-level routines (e.g. leaving out FindFirst/FindNext or some functional file picker). Borland's tools are much more complete and less aggravating, in my limited experience.
Note that Delphi and the other Borland tools aren't cheap, unless you can get by with the Personal versions. If cost is an issue, then the various enhanced GNU tools is the way to go, I think.
I wouldn't dismiss [link|http://www.borland.com/delphi_net/index.html|Delphi] out of hand. :-) Maybe grab the $10 Delphi Architect 30-day trial and see if it's worth pursuing.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #172,876
9/6/04 6:43:11 PM
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I just pitched C#
I ASSUME it will be just as stupid as far as interface VS code issues as VB.Net. It seems like there is a lot of "almost there" in the GUI, and then you write some obscure code.
At least the obscure code will be C based.
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Post #172,886
9/6/04 8:27:32 PM
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You just described all of MS' programming languages.
It seems like there is a lot of "almost there" in the GUI, and then you write some obscure code. Every API and every programming environment from Microsoft that I have worked in has been like this. C/C++ 7. QuickBASIC. Visual C++ v1 (Win16 API). VB 1. WordBasic. VBA in Access and Excel. Even QuickC+Assembler which was really quite a good, if a little obscure, product; it was hampered by the fact that you were programming under MS-DOS. In Microsoft-land, obscure code is *always* required to make the API dance the way you need it to rather than the way Microsoft believes you will want it to. Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #172,897
9/6/04 9:15:54 PM
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Python wins on several of those axes
> Have a RAD development environment
[link|http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/|http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/]
[link|http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/|http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/]
For simple dialog-driven scripts, see [link|http://www.ferg.org/easygui/|http://www.ferg.org/easygui/]
> Run under windows
Natch. Specifically, you can wrap any DLL with pywin32: [link|http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywin32/|http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywin32/] I've recently built and used an ADO wrapper quite successfully, for example.
> Speak to databases
[link|http://www.python.org/topics/database/|http://www.python.org/topics/database/]
> Speak to networks
[link|http://docs.python.org/lib/lib.html|http://docs.python.org/lib/lib.html] Any particular protocol you had in mind? >;)
> Not have a cost for distributing the end results
Free speech _and_ free beer.
> Have some presence on programmer resumes
Erm. Not sure what you mean by this; you mean "well-known"? Then you're stuck with C# and Java. But I'll make this claim: any VB programmer can become as productive in Python (as they are in VB) within a month. I don't mean ship them off to a month-long seminar; I mean _as they're working_.
> Have a quick learning curve for some initial wins to prove it out
Especially given the number of people worldwide using Python to hack Win32, I think you'll find sysadmin scripting to be your foot in the door for Python, as others have.
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Post #172,934
9/7/04 11:51:07 AM
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Sounds exactly like...
C++ Builder...or
Delphi...or
C# builder (ugh! That hurt!)...or
Kylix
All Borland products.
All designed to do EXACTLY what you stated, exactly the way you stated.
All work.
All Microsoft-free (unless, of course, you want to use the Microsoft libraries, which are included).
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #173,050
9/8/04 7:18:30 AM
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Oh, what's the use?! "Nobody is as blind...", and so on. :-(
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