Well, I've learned

Post #167,039 by Nightowl 8/1/04 9:34:32 PM 8/1/04 9:35:58 PM Reply	Well, I've learned And the lesson I learned was not to trust anyone just because he/she claims to be a Christian or religious. My ex-fiance was "religious" so to speak. He went to church the dutiful four times a year, and claimed to be a Christian. He cheated on me and screwed me over, and wasn't worth it. I don't buy anyone hiding behind the religious cloak anymore, not even George Bush, not any politician, no one. Show me who and how you are before I'll trust you, that's my motto. Nightowl >8# P.S. Scott, if this is out of hand and should go to religion, let me know. EDIT: Never mind, I see that Andrew did already. :) Note to self: Find new signature soon. Edited by Nightowl Aug. 1, 2004, 09:35:58 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #167,066 by Ashton 8/1/04 11:09:03 PM Reply	This phrase makes you a maverick I don't buy anyone hiding behind the religious cloak anymore, not even George Bush, not any politician, no one. Show me who and how you are before I'll trust you, that's my motto. Because you see, some 90+% of self-described Evangelicals and some large number of not-quite so-Fundy others: deem it exactly enough for him to incorporate into frequent stumbling utterances, I Believe ___ [and btw, God Tells Me how to run the world next] - and that's enough for him just 'to say', for these to ignore all else about GWB performance, ever. And enough for me to see these as the perfectly-clear, self-ID'd enemies of our or any: NOT-a-Theocracy State. In a close election - such ones as these, Matter. Visible Enemies of "The Open Society" - therefore my enemies too, both viscerally and practically. I see such folk no differently than I see the 19 airplane driving Yuppie-Arabs with Exactly the same agenda: 'Believe' as I Do - or die. It may well come to "the barricades" right here in River City .. if our sucky karma continues unabated. (So you see that there's nothing here personally directed at you & yours.. or all those other sane folk who flock into their various worship-houses on Sunday, yet retain some comprehension of why they May Not Make Me join them, under any circumstances whatsoever.) HTH, Ashton
Post #167,067 by Nightowl 8/1/04 11:12:33 PM Reply	Yay, someone gets it! That's all I wanted IWT to understand, that not all religious people are identically believing, blindly following sheep who trust every "religious" word out of someone's mouth. Thanks Ashton, I feel so much better now. Nightowl >8# Note to self: Find new signature soon.
Post #167,069 by rcareaga 8/1/04 11:20:33 PM Reply	What you've learned Sweetheart: Everything you've read in the Old and New Testaments is bogus, including the words "and" and "the." You're an ignorant dupe. The Lord Jesus ain't gonna save your soul no matter how hard you pray. Get over it. Live your deluded life, die and rot, 'cause that's all that's ever going to happen to you. Sorry to be the one to break the news. grumpily, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #167,082 by Andrew Grygus 8/2/04 1:14:24 AM Reply	Well, yes, that is grumpy And just as unproven as any other religion. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #167,089 by Ashton 8/2/04 4:36:43 AM 8/2/04 4:47:42 AM Reply	I can prove The Truth Although the moon is smaller than the Earth, it is farther away. (It's always merely a matter of Which 'Beliefs' you're willing to band together for, to kill all the Deniers about. Any old century Any old Truth will serve sanctimonious Righteousness and cha cha cha) I, [link\|http://www.setileague.org/editor/brunoalt.htm\| Giordano], secure in the Certain knowledge that My President takes his CinC Orders from Gawd. I Know where the Buck Stops, now. (Screw the anointment [oil] - it's all about Myrrh.) Let us prey. The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. Paul Valery, 1895 Edited by Ashton Aug. 2, 2004, 04:47:42 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #167,090 by rcareaga 8/2/04 5:32:31 AM Reply	unproven? And can you prove that the fairies do not tango and tapdance on the toadstools under a shower of silver pixie dust on the summer solstice? Absent such proof shall I perforce believe in the dancing sprites? (Incidentally, a distraction during the composition of the abusive post caused me to to omit the step of directing that teaspoonful of venom to the Flame Forum as originally intended.) Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #167,093 by pwhysall 8/2/04 6:07:34 AM Reply	Absence of evidence means nothing. While fairies have not been observed dancing on toadstools, this does not mean that we can logically state that they do not do so. You are, of course, free to believe whatever you like (for now...); however, it is likely to be unproductive to bring to bear the scientific method on something that is inherently unscientific. Andrew's comment is perfectly correct. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #167,096 by Ashton 8/2/04 6:34:29 AM Reply	Evidence..?___of the by-definition ineffable? Ummm
Post #167,098 by deSitter 8/2/04 6:37:33 AM Reply	Re: Absence of evidence means nothing. Yes, but rather deeper than you suspect - he means that passionate disbelief is nevertheless a belief. -drl
Post #167,099 by pwhysall 8/2/04 6:42:27 AM Reply	You shouldn't try to read my mind. I know exactly what Andrew meant. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #167,101 by CRConrad 8/2/04 6:46:59 AM 8/2/04 6:49:18 AM Reply	Yes it does. It means whackos who believe in silly shit like fairies, unicorns, easter bunnies -- or gods! -- should shut the fuck up until they HAVE some. Why the fuck SHOULD such obviously deluded in-duh-viduals be accorded the same intellectual() respect as fully sane people?!? (): NB, I'm not talking about the general human respect I have for all people. I'm certainly NOT saying that, for example, toddlers, seniles, or the retarded should be denied (to borrow a famous Yank phrasing (but derived from J. S. Mill) of it) "the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", any more than the rest of us; I am ONLY saying that what people who insist on believing in fairy tales say and think should be taken no more seriously than what, for example, toddlers, seniles, or the retarded say and think. By believing in fairy tales, they're placing themselves in the same general category. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown] Edited by CRConrad Aug. 2, 2004, 06:49:18 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #167,119 by boxley 8/2/04 10:43:29 AM Reply	obviously you havnt stopped for a drink at the blue moon evidence that fairies dance with toads. thanx, bill "delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #167,128 by jb4 8/2/04 11:31:40 AM Reply	Best post in this thread! Thanx, box! jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #167,126 by Arkadiy 8/2/04 11:02:53 AM Reply	Why is that in every debate about religion and atheism we end up with driving desire to lock somebody up? It used to be the riligious who acted on that desire. I dare say, they got it out of their system for now. Atheists' turn? -- "...was poorly, lugubrious and intoxicated." -- Patrick O'Brian, "Master and Commander"
Post #167,138 by deSitter 8/2/04 12:57:36 PM Reply	Strict atheism is also a religion. -drl
Post #167,142 by a6l6e6x 8/2/04 1:20:46 PM Reply	For small values of religion. :) Alex "If I seem unduly clear to you, you must have misunderstood what I said." -- Alan Greenspan, Federal Reserve chairman
Post #167,223 by orion 8/3/04 1:56:10 AM Reply	To be quite honest religion is one of those "hot topics" that causes a lot of debate. What one person or group believes may be different from what another person or group believes. If you would like to view it on a psychological level, using me for an example, I think I can explain it a bit better. My belief in something greater than myself, God for instance, helps me cope better psychologically with life's issues. I get all upset and anxious, my blood pressure goes up, and I get sick, then I pray to that higher power to help me, and somehow by doing this, psychologically it helps me feel better, my blood pressure lowers, and I am no longer upset or anxious. Now perhaps this is more like a tool that I use to help me psychologically deal with my problems. Some would consider me insane for believing in a God, perhaps some would call me superstitious. Yet an observer cannot deny the benefits that believing in God gives me. My beliefs give my life meaning, and I have something to use to counter suicidal thoughts. I think "No if I kill myself, I'll end up in Hell. I'd better seek help fast before I totally lose control." because I also believe in a Heaven and Hell. I believe that my sins will be forgiven and that I will end up in Heaven, because of this I have no fear over death and I am not afraid of dying. I can honestly say that if I didn't have my faith, I would have most likely killed myself for real, because life to me would not have a meaning and with there not being a God, there would not be a Hell. So in this way and others, my religion benefits me. Even if I am 100% wrong and there is no God, you cannot deny the psychological effects my beliefs have on me. Believing in God also helps me cope with the loss of a loved one or friend, or a disaster, or some other bad event in my life. I do not try to convert those who do not want to be converted, but I do feel that I have a freedom to express my beliefs just like anyone else has for their beliefs. I feel that putting down someone's beliefs and making fun of them for their beliefs is morally wrong. In a diverse world, we should respect other people's rights to believe what they want, even if we do not believe the same things that they do. For example, I sometimes visit Thai Buddhist Monks, I also went to Thailand and met some of the more powerful monks. I have had interesting conversations with them, and I learned how to meditate from them. I may not believe in their religion, but I refuse to put them down or make fun of their religion. I hope this makes sense somehow, it is late and I am tired. I just wanted to get my two cents worth in. *"What's the use of saving life when you see what you do with it?" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"* [link\|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268\|I am from District 268].

Welcome to IWETHEY!