Post #155,690
5/18/04 9:39:24 AM
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Please read me in my posts :)
--
Buy high, sell sober.
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Post #155,714
5/18/04 12:00:20 PM
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ooOOoo
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #155,720
5/18/04 12:34:32 PM
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Stop Calumniating!
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #155,759
5/18/04 4:21:38 PM
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Kind'a like with LeMoron, the problem here is, I DID!
What was lacking was the context, from reading what it was you were replying to.
Frightening parallel, isn't it, if people get the bad impression you'd want to correct by asking them to "read you in your posts"... FROM reading you in your posts! (*) Stark illustration of the dangers of too much brevity. (Wonder if Ashton has taken the overdoing-it aspect into account, in those Awards of his?)
(*): Though in this case, I suppose you could call it MIS-reading. And, to be honest, I must'a kind'a read the thread display lopsidedly or something, 'coz at the time I wrote the first version, I was under the impression that your post was in reply to Mike "The Troglodyte" Moffitt -- which, knowing the both of you, may have contributed to my willingness to assume the worst possible interpretation of your one-liner was the intended one. But then again, the corrective context *did* have to be supplied by *another* post... So, all in all, the Frightening French Parallel stands.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #155,838
5/18/04 9:39:09 PM
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"Let me say this about that..
I know you think you understood what you thought you heard me say; I don't think you realize that what I said is not what I meant.."
Guess who [said ~ that]
My unresearched recollection of something uttered by RM Nixon at a press conference; I imagine it's Out There, more accurately.
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Post #155,847
5/18/04 10:20:54 PM
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you mean besides me?
Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #155,850
5/18/04 11:16:53 PM
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It's also been attributed to Greenspan.
[link|http://sammarshall.blogspot.com/2003_04_01_sammarshall_archive.html|Linky] citing Greenspan and [link|http://www.words-worth.de/robin/2003_12_01_archive.php|linky] mentioning Greenspan, Nixon, and Sen. S.I. Hayakawa. Of course, Greenspan was around in Nixon's term(s), so he might have picked it up from him.
I have a vague recollection on seeing a tape with Greenspan saying it, but he may not have originated it.
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #155,959
5/19/04 4:41:12 PM
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I would vote for S. I. Hayakawa.
[link|http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume5/224-225.htm|Samuel I. Hayakawa], great semanticist, author of [link|http://www.edu-books.com/Language_in_Thought_and_Action_Fifth_Edition_0156482401.html| Language in Thought and Action] in 1949 (a re-write of Language in Action, 1941). Having read the 2nd edition in the late 1960's, I promised myself to re-read Language in Thought and Action. Another reason I liked the guy was his leadership of U.S. English, trying to make English the official US language with an amendment to the US Constitution. \ufffdBilingualism for the individual is fine,\ufffd he argued, \ufffdbut not for a country.\ufffd There's nothing magic about English, it's the idea of a single language to bind the populace.
Alex
"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it." -- Winston Churchill
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Post #155,988
5/19/04 6:44:20 PM
5/20/04 4:14:30 AM
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S. I. Hayakawa - er, plagiarist extraordinaire
As I have mentioned en passant a few times -
His book was a rip-off of the seminal, earlier work (1935) by Stuart Chase, The Tyranny of Words. Chase also wrote, The Power of Words.
While you can't copyright an idea - one is expected at least to give attribution. SIH's smarmy self promotion long into his dotage, never credited the author of the thesis of his 'work'.
(He was a 'local', too - taught at SF State. I never got around to twitting the guy; no excuse. Massively full-of-Himself I deemed him.)
Yes, he embroidered and added material, but never IMhO was his opus as clear as Chase's - who focussed upon the [referent] for words, and how confusion about that (re each word chosen) is the root cause of all miscommunication. Chase also wrote for a child's comprehension level - obv clearly enough that Hayakawa Got It too.
Read both.
moi
Edit: sp. [twice!] and:
Chase introduced the idea of substituting blab wherever hi-falutin Words like Liberty, Truth, Goodness were being employed -- using political speeches as candidates. Were children exposed early to his (akshully quite Fun) book, there would be far less attention paid to the radio-demagogues - and far more laughter directed to the hoary fulminations of senile Senators.
But.. they aren't (exposed), the Nintendo Eloi.
Edited by Ashton
May 19, 2004, 06:50:38 PM EDT
Edited by Ashton
May 20, 2004, 04:14:30 AM EDT
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Post #156,011
5/19/04 8:24:54 PM
5/20/04 7:17:49 AM
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I put it on The List. Thanks!
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Post #156,019
5/19/04 9:44:34 PM
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I suspect your opinion is colored by the events when...
S. I. Hayakawa was president of S. F. State. The reference I had cited says: ... Dr. Hayakawa was already working on his first book dealing with the theories of general semantics advanced by Alfred Korzybski, a Polish scholar whom he met in 1938. The book also uses Hayakawa's own experience, being of Japanese descent and living in the US during WW-II, to make some points. [link|http://www.kcmetro.cc.mo.us/pennvalley/biology/lewis/chase.htm|Then, there is this reference]: Clearly, if Korzybski's work were to reach a mass audience, someone would have to take up the task to translate it into language T.C. Mits could understand. The first to do so was Stuart Chase, shown in the photo at right. His "Tyranny of Words" published in 1938 became a bestseller and remains in print to this day. Although "Tyranny" was an alley cat of Korzybski, Ogden and Richards, and a few other sources, nevertheless, it served to generate widespread interest in Korzybski's work. "Tyranny" also served as my introduction to Korzybski. I stumbled onto Chase's book while researching political language during the Watergate crisis in 1974. Chase whetted my appetite, and within a few months I had consumed nearly every other book he had written (and there were many). The next year I began my direct assault on "Science and Sanity."
Until he encountered Korzybski, Chase was mostly an economics writer. The title of his 1932 book, "A New Deal," was adopted as the official label of the Roosevelt administration. I wrote to Chase in 1974 and he was nice enough to write back and send me an autographed copy of "Tyranny." We corresponded quite a bit for the next couple years, but then we drifted apart. He died on Nov. 16, 1985 at the age of 97. His last book, published in 1969, "Danger: Men Talking!" continued to reflect the deep effects Korzybski had on his life. So, perhaps Stuart Chase wrote well, but the material is based on the work of others as well.
Alex
"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it." -- Winston Churchill
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Post #156,031
5/20/04 4:49:14 AM
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Boffo find -
Hadn't Googled Chase, to see what's out there in contemporary view. Just going on recollections from my own reading.
Yes, personal opinions of SIH were undoubtedly coloured by his approximation in political stance to - my Neanderthal Gramma, but that was predated by the matters mentioned.
Since I believe that precious few ideas are truly Original, but are most frequently small variants of a simpler kernel, expressed better? differently? -- no problemo with Korzybski (but only if one is an academic; speaks in those tongues).
I still deem that Chase said 'it' first, more concisely and more usefully: as a child could grok the ideas. Korzybski would ever reach only an academic audience. SIH simply made both writers' work into a fulcrum to launch an academic career of his own; I'm sure that he seemed "original" to those who had never read Korzybski or Chase.. (Not that he is alone in that method!)
My copy of Tyranny is indeed \ufffd 1938, but it is paperback - I thought it was composed a bit earlier. The Power of Words is \ufffd 1953-54.. a bit of a war in the interim.
I believe that more people who read Chase, understood what they had read than.. Mr. K. And in our postliterate era, KISS has to be vastly more important than 'completeness of theory'.
Liked the progression cited; Chase galvanized an exploration: what more can one look for in a single 'book'? Now if only more children were to be exposed to TW, we might begin to end the era of dumbth, in just one generation. Always there is hope.
moi
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Post #156,061
5/20/04 12:11:59 PM
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No question of the need to teach the kids TW.
But, if you (to verb a noun) Google "Korzybski", you'll find some rather negative comments about him - not following the scientific method, starting a cult, etc. Still, it sure beats total ignorance.
Alex
"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it." -- Winston Churchill
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Post #155,882
5/19/04 9:58:44 AM
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Nixon
I bought the black light poster the year he said it.
----------------------------------------- It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why? Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand. Mike Royko
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Post #155,884
5/19/04 10:06:26 AM
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Didn't he "misspeak" when he said that?
bcnu, Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
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