Post #154,792
5/12/04 10:03:58 AM
|
No matter what we do, the fundies will celebrate
The only possible "withdrawal with honor" is to fully acomplish the mission. Anything less than that will make no difference to them.
--
Buy high, sell sober.
|
Post #154,953
5/13/04 4:06:55 AM
|
Nixon's "Peace with Honor" in Vietnam, then?
(His campaign promise; the death of RFK left the place so numb.. the weasel actually made it into the oval office. I marked his ascension as the beginning year -1968- of the inexorable decline of the US. I seem not to have erred in that judgment of 1968.)
|
Post #154,983
5/13/04 12:42:23 PM
|
bomb the crap out of them and leave the place a mess?
then let them kill each other until there is one dominant leader again?
works for me.
thanx,
bill
Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #154,989
5/13/04 12:53:18 PM
5/13/04 1:04:44 PM
|
Been thinking that may be a part of the only solution.
First, we kill all the Muslims everywhere.
Then, we go after the Zionists and wipe them out too.
Then, we go after the Christians (they want Rapture? Let's give it to them).
We can probably afford to let the Buddhists hang around, and definitely the Classical Taoists, though the Hindus probably have to go. Then, if there are any human beings left on the planet that are still clinging to a medieval, superstitious, anthropomorphic religion, we take them out.
See, we have to do this because every damned one of those anthropomorphic superstitions (read religions) are a breeding ground for the believers to think they are "the one true chosen people of God". I don't see an end to this anywhere until we shed ourselves of all the ridiculous "God in Man's Image" excrement still lying around the planet and being consumed en masse by the seemingly countless number of underdeveloped minds amongst us. Unfortunately, that means taking out a good number of people. Personally, I find myself wishing harder every day for the big comet to hit us and let the cockroaches and mosquitos have a go.
Edit: I'd never heard of Dawkins until a friend of mine read this post. He gave me this link: [link|http://ffrf.org/articles/?t=others/dawkins.txt|http://ffrf.org/arti...thers/dawkins.txt] While I am not an aetheist, I must agree that he is dead-bang-on in this piece.
bcnu,
Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
Edited by mmoffitt
May 13, 2004, 01:04:44 PM EDT
|
Post #155,015
5/13/04 3:22:40 PM
|
Oh my. Somebody is preparing a plan for mass killing
and he forgets the most important element. Dude, FIRST, you kill JEWS! Are you, like, some kind of innovator or something?
--
Buy high, sell sober.
|
Post #155,022
5/13/04 4:08:22 PM
|
Close to, but not quite,
a Godwin alert. I am completely frustrated. I don't give a rat's ass what anyone "believes". If that were all that organized religion involved, that'd be great. But it isn't. Very, very, very far from it. More death and misery has been inflicted on this planet in the name of God than in the name of anything else. We'll never have peace until we give up our superstitions. Dawkins said it well when he said the following: Emphasis Mine.In the aftermath of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, we have heard denunciations of the fanaticism in which terrorism is rooted, but we have heard nothing about the real cause of this fanaticism. Religion is the culprit, but no one dares say it. Instead, we have actually heard pleas for even more religion. There have been prayer sessions throughout the land, including even a "national day of prayer" and political speech after political speech that invariably ended with the obligatory "God bless America," but no public official has yet had the courage to say, "Religion caused this." [link|http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2001/6/016front.html|http://www.infidels....1/6/016front.html] Marx was almost right, but it isn't just an opiate - it is the most toxic poison on earth. bcnu,
Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
|
Post #155,024
5/13/04 4:12:39 PM
|
dont blame the religious on the religion
Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #155,026
5/13/04 4:19:18 PM
|
At their (religion's) core, they are all rotten.
"We know the way." "We are the chosen." "Ours is the ONLY way to God."
We/They based on what you "believe" is insane. And in Mesopotamia that attitude hasn't changed in thousands of years. Why all the forks? Even "within a give faith" if not because some subgroup thinks they are closer to God than the rest. And that is arrogance. And arrogance leads to oppression and war.
But, I've been around long enough to know that you can't change what some one believes. And there is the problem.
bcnu,
Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
|
Post #155,028
5/13/04 4:28:04 PM
|
We/they based on beliefs is no more insane
that we/they based on anything else. We/they is built deep into human brains. It may just be built into life as such. Do you relly think that eliminating religion will eliminate we/they? Take a look at communist countries at war with each other: USSR, China, Vietnam. They had no "superstition", yet they managed to fight. And inside those countries - elite killing plebs by millions. Was that done in the nam of religion? Nope, in the name of power. So, religion is just one way for our tendency to be nasty.
--
Buy high, sell sober.
|
Post #155,033
5/13/04 4:54:28 PM
|
We/They won't disappear with religion.
But, I'd argue that the we/they perceptions created by religious conviction are far more divisive than those otherwise constructed.
I'm just sick of all this "God is on our side" nonsense from both Al Qaeda and us and my problem with religion is that if you're convinced that "God is with you" in your battles then nothing shy of your death will make you stop fighting. That is the real danger of religion. China and the CCCP eventually made peace - why? neither was deluded into thinking God was with them. You can't say that about Zionists and Palestineans, nor the US and Islamic Fundamentalists - at least not while the sitting President claims God chose him to be President. Religion is making the world a vastly more dangerous place than it has to be.
It ought to be a requirement that you are an aetheist before you can hold elective office or command any army. Gah, sorry to rant on like this, but I've had enough...
bcnu,
Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
|
Post #155,047
5/13/04 5:35:34 PM
|
Religion is only effective because it appeals to people
The tendancies in people that you see reflected in religion are in people regardless. Attacking that symptom does not cure the problem.
See Cambodia for a well-known example.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
|
Post #155,577
5/17/04 5:45:54 PM
|
Well said.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #155,081
5/13/04 9:48:18 PM
|
when you have more that one man and two woman
there is a pack mentality, leader follower. Thats why canines are our friend and cats only tolerate us. Extend that to a large group of people they demand leadership. Lets use the bible for an example. The Jews were led by prophets appointed by the big guy and were followed argueing and whining all the way. They demanded a king, saul got appointed. Now whether myth or fact the story mirrors human kind. Most of us like to follow someone we feel has leadership whether in personal religious or political life. Very few people have the personality to say I make my own mind and fuck everyone else because I know what is right in my mind. Peoples personalities demand approbation by others for self identity. Until that is overcome to where everyman can identify his own traits as standalone reliance this shit will happen.
thanx,
bill
Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #155,082
5/13/04 9:56:51 PM
|
Amusing misread
I came to politics, straight after looking at [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=155000|this thread].
I did an amusing double-take at your talking about more than one man and two women...
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
|
Post #155,079
5/13/04 9:42:54 PM
|
Re: dont blame the religious on the religion
I agree here.
Not all religious people are as extreme as that, and not all believe they are the "chosen" people of God. It's the few believers that use that as the crutch to support their causes, whatever they may be, and then act upon them, that are guilty of that extremism, not the general every day believer.
Nightowl >8#
"AHHHHH! Relatives coming out of the woodwork!!!!!!"
|
Post #155,124
5/14/04 8:37:35 AM
|
So, ....
It's the few believers that use that as the crutch to support their causes, whatever they may be, and then act upon them, that are guilty of that extremism, not the general every day believer.
the evil of religion is a matter of degree only. I see.
bcnu,
Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
|
Post #155,156
5/14/04 1:05:37 PM
5/14/04 1:06:38 PM
|
Religion isn't evil
Those who abuse or misuse it are.
Nightowl >8#
Edit: added word "misuse"
"AHHHHH! Relatives coming out of the woodwork!!!!!!"
Edited by Nightowl
May 14, 2004, 01:06:38 PM EDT
|
Post #155,160
5/14/04 1:10:49 PM
|
Sounds like gun control
"Guns don't kill people. People kill people."
|
Post #155,170
5/14/04 2:41:58 PM
|
Hah!
Back off man, I've got a rosary and I'm not afraid to use it!
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
|
Post #155,172
5/14/04 2:57:19 PM
|
Careful or I'll douse you with Holy Water!
|
Post #155,174
5/14/04 3:13:22 PM
|
Knock it off, both of you!
The real weapon is the Bible. Ya know, getting hit wit one of those hardbound, fully-illustrated, fully-annotated monsters can really hurt!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
Post #155,226
5/14/04 7:50:53 PM
|
The revealed religions . . .
. . Judaism, it's child Christianity and Christianity's child Islam, are based on documents written by men but claimed to be "The Word of God". Some researchers now think much of this writing was done during the reign of a single king to justify his political ambitions.
These documents are a litany of bigotry, genocide, rape, murder and theft "in the name of God" to justify special benefit for a circle of "believers". I would certainly call this evil. Even so, truly good people brought up in these religions have been able to selectiveley interpret these document for good.
Unfortunately all too many, the majority, interpret this "Word of God" in its originally intended way as a justification for bigotry, genocide, rape, murder and theft, and their interpretation for "good" applies only to a circle of believers.
Regardless of occasional interpretation for wider good, I have to judge these religions as tools of evil. Those who interpret them for good could easily do their good in practically any other religious framework, probably more easily.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #155,294
5/15/04 8:49:21 AM
|
I wish I had said that. Well put.
bcnu,
Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
|
Post #155,306
5/15/04 10:52:52 AM
|
I disagree complete...
Read my post below about Jesus being the "standard" of Christianity.
The problem with Christianity is that most believers don't ever "complete the dots". It's the reason I don't like fundamentalism, and I don't really like the "Baptist" once-saved always-saved because it leaves a bunch of people who don't really understand "the harder parts" of Christianity like the phrases in the other post.
The Bible is really a great book, but noone bothers to read it. Jesus said many things that would solve the problems of the world, but most people won't follow it.
Simple things:
1. Love your enemies.
2. Treat others as you would be treated.
3. Always live with integrity (honesty, don't steal or exploit others)
Yet, we seems to live the opposite of these.
|
Post #155,315
5/15/04 1:20:14 PM
|
Aren't you the guy that wants to carpet bomb . .
. . the entire Near East and let God sort the saints from the sinners? That doesn't sound like you pay any attention to the Jesus book at all, that sounds like the Old Testament, in spades.
Most Christians consider the teachings of Jesus to be ideally suited to the needs of their neighbors but prefer Joshua and genocide for their own needs. The Church itself brought in and adopted the Old Testament specifically to justify it's own crimes against humanity.
Occident, n. The part of the world lying west (or east) of the Orient. It is largely inhabited by Christians, a powerful sub-tribe of the Hypocrites . . - Ambrose Bierce
I am not a Christian, I'm a Pagan and that means I take responsibility for my own actions. I don't try to pass the blame off on God or some mythical "Son of God" who got nailed to a tree and "died for my sins". My sins are my own and I'll answer for them.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #155,327
5/15/04 4:37:01 PM
|
It's okay. God wants him to do that to the heathens.
bcnu,
Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
|
Post #155,341
5/15/04 9:51:13 PM
|
Read my post below...
I apologized for my comments.
I hate Muslims, but by doing that, I'm a hypocrite, because Jesus did tell us to love everyone.
But, I'm not Jesus, I'm a freakin' sinner. But I should aspire to "something higher".
|
Post #155,367
5/16/04 1:49:18 AM
|
It is OK to be angry with Muslims now and then . . .
. . but hate is a long term degenerative condition, a positive feedback loop that results in ever more rash judgements, bad decisions and ultimately self destruction.
It's also helpful to be sure just exactly what Muslims you're angry with and who exactly you are at war with.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #155,326
5/15/04 4:36:12 PM
|
A good book.
Leviticus 25
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
[link|http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Lev+25%3A44-46&version=KJV|http://biblegateway....44-46&version=KJV]
I take it the "unchosen" are okay to own.
Deuteronomy 20
1 When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
...
4 For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.
...
13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
[link|http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Deuteronomy+20&x=11&y=11|http://biblegateway....nomy+20&x=11&y=11]
So, God wants you to kill people and take everything they have - including their women and this is a good thing if you believe in this religion.
You know, if I had to state my position on religion over again, I think I'd have just quoted some of these vaunted "holy books".
bcnu,
Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
|
Post #155,329
5/15/04 5:45:58 PM
|
The really funny thing . . .
. . is the Christians are all among the people who are supposed to be smitten and owned and robed from - the permission to smite, own and rob is given to Jews, and they aren't Christians.
Pressed, of course, the Christians mumble something about a "New Covenent" that transfers these permissions from Jews (now OK to smite, own and rob from) to Christians.
I'll need to see a notorized copy of that "New Covenent" with God's signiture (flaming, of course) on it before I'm going to believe that tall tale. Even SCO has a more believable story.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #155,330
5/15/04 5:50:17 PM
|
I think I can explain
there was a sword in a broad's hand rising from a lake, no thats a different story.
thanx,
bill
Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #155,331
5/15/04 5:52:33 PM
5/15/04 5:56:11 PM
|
whats yer point?
dang crap touch pad, now if you and I cannot agree on a clearly worded american english second ammendment to the constitution, how can you expect to understand 5 books of the old testament that the explaination of those short five books is 18 volumes of several thousand pages each written upside down and sideways in hebrew?
(Talmud)
thanx,
bill
Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Edited by boxley
May 15, 2004, 05:56:11 PM EDT
|
Post #155,333
5/15/04 6:50:04 PM
|
And political statements are still like that to this day.
Five slim clearly stated volumes are followed by 18 multi-thousand page tomes of scholarly back pedaling, "clarification" and spin doctoring.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #155,378
5/16/04 7:33:27 AM
|
It's worse than that
The common denominator amongst the fundies of *all* banners is an utter inability to discriminate between events and metaphor, combined with an abject historical ignorance of the role of myth in the human jelloware.
From such pervasive and ultimately fatal ignorance of even the uses of human language, + nukes now and forever.. that 'forever' just may not be a lengthy one. Or as Bertie Russell opined way back in '62, in the delightful little cartoon-illustrated tract I am pleased to possess -
Since the beginning
Man has never refrained
From any folly
Of which he is capable
RIP - Monumental Assholes
|
Post #155,454
5/17/04 10:37:20 AM
|
Ok, let's see
>>>>>>>>>
Judaism, it's child Christianity and Christianity's child Islam
<<<<<<<<<
Islam is more of Judaism's child that Christianity. More of Christianity's younger brother than its child.
>>>>>>>>>
These documents are a litany of bigotry, genocide, rape, murder and theft "in the name of God" to justify special benefit for a circle of "believers". I would certainly call this evil. Even so, truly good people brought up in these religions have been able to selectiveley interpret these document for good.
<<<<<<<<<
As opposed to, say, Greek myths or Indian texts? These documents are supposed to work in an imperfect world. The world where, if you don't kill, you get killed. It's easy to forget about it living here in US, but in most of the rest of the world, it's still very, very bad.
>>>>>>>>
Unfortunately all too many, the majority, interpret this "Word of God" in its originally intended way as a justification for bigotry, genocide, rape, murder and theft, and their interpretation for "good" applies only to a circle of believers.
<<<<<<<<
Can't talk about Christianity and Islam, but Torah was given to be interpreted, and much of this interpretation starts with Moses. Your "majority" is wrong. Basically, if Torah says that Earth is flat, and you can plainly see otherwise, you need a better interpretation. If Torah says that a woman is worth less than a man, and you can plainly see that it's wrong, by the same token, Torah needs a better interpretation. That's how Judaism works, and it worked this way since day one. Any "majority" that thinks otherwize is a mob, and should be treated as such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Regardless of occasional interpretation for wider good, I have to judge these religions as tools of evil. Those who interpret them for good could easily do their good in practically any other religious framework, probably more easily.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Thank you for admitting that many good people do need a framework of religion to be good. I am sure you misspoke yourself, but it was gratifying nevertheless.
--
Buy high, sell sober.
|
Post #155,459
5/17/04 11:34:56 AM
5/17/04 11:37:20 AM
|
Re: Ok, let's see
The Judaic method of "interpreting" is clearly superior to the Islamic stand of the literal Truth of one book and only one book with no interpretation possible. One must, however, question the relevance of documents that require 100 times their own weight in interpretation. This very weight takes interpretation out of the public realm and places it in the hands of "experts", each with his own agenda.
Christianity is chaotic because there are no limits or controls on interpretation and it's easy for self appointed authorities to set up shop and gather a following.
I do not dispute the violence or intolerance of other traditional documents and most are over-ripe for replacement. The Buddhist texts were intended to modernize Hinduism and return it to its shamanic roots but on a higher plane. The people found the old ways more attractive and Buddhism faded from India.
The New Testament was intended to replace what had gone before, but the rabble rousers and assasins intent on establishing an authoritative Church brought in the Old Testament to justify a structure not at all supported by the original principles of Christianity. Some Christian sects do rightly reject the Old Testament.
You are incorrect that I misspoke in implying a religious framework can be useful - I recognize many benefits of such a framework. The problem with religious frameworks, as with political frameworks, is the power hungry see opportunity there and seek to warp them to their own advantage. Sometimes they have to be torn down and rebuilt.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #155,632
5/17/04 10:55:53 PM
5/17/04 10:56:46 PM
|
Ahh, I see.
You must be talking about the US Constitution:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One must, however, question the relevance of documents that require 100 times their own weight in interpretation. This very weight takes interpretation out of the public realm and places it in the hands of "experts", each with his own agenda.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
:)
--
Buy high, sell sober.
Edited by Arkadiy
May 17, 2004, 10:56:46 PM EDT
|
Post #155,471
5/17/04 12:32:37 PM
|
Well Mike, I hate to tell ya
But I absolutely refuse to be lead to the slaughter simply because you think my religion is old hat. So... too bad for you. Dream up some other "final solution," this one ain't gonna happen.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #155,031
5/13/04 4:43:45 PM
|
Marx was right, just had wrong drug
Religion isn't the opiate of the masses, its more like a mixture of crystal meth and PCP (with a bit of peyote thrown in for flavor).
Hell, if it were the opiate of the masses, all the muslims would be to stoned to stone each other , or self-flagellate, or what eve other quaint rituals they have thought up over the years ot "prove" their "righteousness".
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
