The revealed religions . . .

Post #155,226 by Andrew Grygus 5/14/04 7:50:53 PM Reply	The revealed religions . . . . . Judaism, it's child Christianity and Christianity's child Islam, are based on documents written by men but claimed to be "The Word of God". Some researchers now think much of this writing was done during the reign of a single king to justify his political ambitions. These documents are a litany of bigotry, genocide, rape, murder and theft "in the name of God" to justify special benefit for a circle of "believers". I would certainly call this evil. Even so, truly good people brought up in these religions have been able to selectiveley interpret these document for good. Unfortunately all too many, the majority, interpret this "Word of God" in its originally intended way as a justification for bigotry, genocide, rape, murder and theft, and their interpretation for "good" applies only to a circle of believers. Regardless of occasional interpretation for wider good, I have to judge these religions as tools of evil. Those who interpret them for good could easily do their good in practically any other religious framework, probably more easily. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #155,294 by mmoffitt 5/15/04 8:49:21 AM Reply	I wish I had said that. Well put. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #155,306 by gdaustin 5/15/04 10:52:52 AM Reply	I disagree complete... Read my post below about Jesus being the "standard" of Christianity. The problem with Christianity is that most believers don't ever "complete the dots". It's the reason I don't like fundamentalism, and I don't really like the "Baptist" once-saved always-saved because it leaves a bunch of people who don't really understand "the harder parts" of Christianity like the phrases in the other post. The Bible is really a great book, but noone bothers to read it. Jesus said many things that would solve the problems of the world, but most people won't follow it. Simple things: 1. Love your enemies. 2. Treat others as you would be treated. 3. Always live with integrity (honesty, don't steal or exploit others) Yet, we seems to live the opposite of these.
Post #155,315 by Andrew Grygus 5/15/04 1:20:14 PM Reply	Aren't you the guy that wants to carpet bomb . . . . the entire Near East and let God sort the saints from the sinners? That doesn't sound like you pay any attention to the Jesus book at all, that sounds like the Old Testament, in spades. Most Christians consider the teachings of Jesus to be ideally suited to the needs of their neighbors but prefer Joshua and genocide for their own needs. The Church itself brought in and adopted the Old Testament specifically to justify it's own crimes against humanity. Occident, n. The part of the world lying west (or east) of the Orient. It is largely inhabited by Christians, a powerful sub-tribe of the Hypocrites . . - Ambrose Bierce I am not a Christian, I'm a Pagan and that means I take responsibility for my own actions. I don't try to pass the blame off on God or some mythical "Son of God" who got nailed to a tree and "died for my sins". My sins are my own and I'll answer for them. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #155,327 by mmoffitt 5/15/04 4:37:01 PM Reply	It's okay. God wants him to do that to the heathens. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #155,341 by gdaustin 5/15/04 9:51:13 PM Reply	Read my post below... I apologized for my comments. I hate Muslims, but by doing that, I'm a hypocrite, because Jesus did tell us to love everyone. But, I'm not Jesus, I'm a freakin' sinner. But I should aspire to "something higher".
Post #155,367 by Andrew Grygus 5/16/04 1:49:18 AM Reply	It is OK to be angry with Muslims now and then . . . . . but hate is a long term degenerative condition, a positive feedback loop that results in ever more rash judgements, bad decisions and ultimately self destruction. It's also helpful to be sure just exactly what Muslims you're angry with and who exactly you are at war with. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #155,326 by mmoffitt 5/15/04 4:36:12 PM Reply	A good book. Leviticus 25 44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. [link\|http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Lev+25%3A44-46&version=KJV\|http://biblegateway....44-46&version=KJV] I take it the "unchosen" are okay to own. Deuteronomy 20 1 When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. ... 4 For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you. ... 13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: 14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. 16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: 17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. [link\|http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Deuteronomy+20&x=11&y=11\|http://biblegateway....nomy+20&x=11&y=11] So, God wants you to kill people and take everything they have - including their women and this is a good thing *if you believe in this religion.* You know, if I had to state my position on religion over again, I think I'd have just quoted some of these vaunted "holy books". bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #155,329 by Andrew Grygus 5/15/04 5:45:58 PM Reply	The really funny thing . . . . . is the Christians are all among the people who are supposed to be smitten and owned and robed from - the permission to smite, own and rob is given to Jews, and they aren't Christians. Pressed, of course, the Christians mumble something about a "New Covenent" that transfers these permissions from Jews (now OK to smite, own and rob from) to Christians. I'll need to see a notorized copy of that "New Covenent" with God's signiture (flaming, of course) on it before I'm going to believe that tall tale. Even SCO has a more believable story. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #155,330 by boxley 5/15/04 5:50:17 PM Reply	I think I can explain there was a sword in a broad's hand rising from a lake, no thats a different story. thanx, bill Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #155,331 by boxley 5/15/04 5:52:33 PM 5/15/04 5:56:11 PM Reply	whats yer point? dang crap touch pad, now if you and I cannot agree on a clearly worded american english second ammendment to the constitution, how can you expect to understand 5 books of the old testament that the explaination of those short five books is 18 volumes of several thousand pages each written upside down and sideways in hebrew? (Talmud) thanx, bill Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Edited by boxley May 15, 2004, 05:56:11 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #155,333 by Andrew Grygus 5/15/04 6:50:04 PM Reply	And political statements are still like that to this day. Five slim clearly stated volumes are followed by 18 multi-thousand page tomes of scholarly back pedaling, "clarification" and spin doctoring. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #155,378 by Ashton 5/16/04 7:33:27 AM Reply	It's worse than that The common denominator amongst the fundies of all banners is an utter inability to discriminate between events and metaphor, combined with an abject historical ignorance of the role of myth in the human jelloware. From such pervasive and ultimately fatal ignorance of even the uses of human language, + nukes now and forever.. that 'forever' just may not be a lengthy one. Or as Bertie Russell opined way back in '62, in the delightful little cartoon-illustrated tract I am pleased to possess - Since the beginning Man has never refrained From any folly Of which he is capable RIP - Monumental Assholes
Post #155,454 by Arkadiy 5/17/04 10:37:20 AM Reply	Ok, let's see >>>>>>>>> Judaism, it's child Christianity and Christianity's child Islam <<<<<<<<< Islam is more of Judaism's child that Christianity. More of Christianity's younger brother than its child. >>>>>>>>> These documents are a litany of bigotry, genocide, rape, murder and theft "in the name of God" to justify special benefit for a circle of "believers". I would certainly call this evil. Even so, truly good people brought up in these religions have been able to selectiveley interpret these document for good. <<<<<<<<< As opposed to, say, Greek myths or Indian texts? These documents are supposed to work in an imperfect world. The world where, if you don't kill, you get killed. It's easy to forget about it living here in US, but in most of the rest of the world, it's still very, very bad. >>>>>>>> Unfortunately all too many, the majority, interpret this "Word of God" in its originally intended way as a justification for bigotry, genocide, rape, murder and theft, and their interpretation for "good" applies only to a circle of believers. <<<<<<<< Can't talk about Christianity and Islam, but Torah was given to be interpreted, and much of this interpretation starts with Moses. Your "majority" is wrong. Basically, if Torah says that Earth is flat, and you can plainly see otherwise, you need a better interpretation. If Torah says that a woman is worth less than a man, and you can plainly see that it's wrong, by the same token, Torah needs a better interpretation. That's how Judaism works, and it worked this way since day one. Any "majority" that thinks otherwize is a mob, and should be treated as such. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless of occasional interpretation for wider good, I have to judge these religions as tools of evil. Those who interpret them for good could easily do their good in practically any other religious framework, probably more easily. <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Thank you for admitting that many good people do need a framework of religion to be good. I am sure you misspoke yourself, but it was gratifying nevertheless. -- Buy high, sell sober.
Post #155,459 by Andrew Grygus 5/17/04 11:34:56 AM 5/17/04 11:37:20 AM Reply	Re: Ok, let's see The Judaic method of "interpreting" is clearly superior to the Islamic stand of the literal Truth of one book and only one book with no interpretation possible. One must, however, question the relevance of documents that require 100 times their own weight in interpretation. This very weight takes interpretation out of the public realm and places it in the hands of "experts", each with his own agenda. Christianity is chaotic because there are no limits or controls on interpretation and it's easy for self appointed authorities to set up shop and gather a following. I do not dispute the violence or intolerance of other traditional documents and most are over-ripe for replacement. The Buddhist texts were intended to modernize Hinduism and return it to its shamanic roots but on a higher plane. The people found the old ways more attractive and Buddhism faded from India. The New Testament was intended to replace what had gone before, but the rabble rousers and assasins intent on establishing an authoritative Church brought in the Old Testament to justify a structure not at all supported by the original principles of Christianity. Some Christian sects do rightly reject the Old Testament. You are incorrect that I misspoke in implying a religious framework can be useful - I recognize many benefits of such a framework. The problem with religious frameworks, as with political frameworks, is the power hungry see opportunity there and seek to warp them to their own advantage. Sometimes they have to be torn down and rebuilt. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus May 17, 2004, 11:37:20 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #155,632 by Arkadiy 5/17/04 10:55:53 PM 5/17/04 10:56:46 PM Reply	Ahh, I see. You must be talking about the US Constitution: >>>>>>>>>>>>> One must, however, question the relevance of documents that require 100 times their own weight in interpretation. This very weight takes interpretation out of the public realm and places it in the hands of "experts", each with his own agenda. <<<<<<<<<<<<< :) -- Buy high, sell sober. Edited by Arkadiy May 17, 2004, 10:56:46 PM EDT Expand All History

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