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New I didn't study Econ, but I'm not following this.
In response to the criticism that you have things backwards, that you have society subordinate to free enterprise, you post:

"Free-enterprise (bizness) is the choice that >this< society chose to use to conduct its material trade...Society has not failed bizness...which is how my point came across...society has failed >itself< by not preparing the members of society to survive within its own framework."

So, the point remains the same. That is, "Society failed to prepare its people for survival in a free market" or "Society failed to prepare its people to be productive in a free market".

Seems a minor nit, but then, I didn't study economics.

bcnu,
Mikem
who doesn't worry about little elements of R, except for point-set topology, where they're all r ... (okay, some have subscripts) ;0)
New It may be a minor nit....
...but I think it changes the meaning quite a bit.

This country...as a subset of the global society...(hereinafter known for this discussion as "society") chose an economic model to use for the conduct of its interactions between its members and other subset societies.

In making that choice..."society" committed itself to the support of that model. It is NOT the only thing involved in the support of society...even if it is a pretty big part.

Another aspect of "society" is the goal of education of its members. In the US...the goal of education is not only the simple goal of raising self-awareness...but the goal of preparation and indoctrination of the membership in the ways of society. Part of that goal MUST be the preparation of its members for survival in "society's" choice of an economic model.

So the change of meaning is in that statement. Society failed itself by failing to educate its members to survive within itself.

This does NOT place society subservient to its economic model. It simply makes society responsible for its choice of conduct.

Obviously, Soviet society's model was completely different. Thus, the goals of the other societal aspects were different...because they were designed to support a different view of how its members should interact. And...since soviet society fell...obviously that society failed itself...in many ways...and so drastically as to collapse itself.

Hell, France has a completely different system of education based upon their economic system. Apprenticeship's and other craft oriented development is much more important to them than to us. Our focus is more on college and higher education.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Much better!
BTW, Germany is also still pretty big on apprenticeships and stuff... Sweden, OTOH, has gone all-out on vocational schools -- only, in the name of Holy Equality At Least In Names, they're known as the practical programs of Senior High...

But those countries, including France, don't have all that much of a different "economic system"; it's just the degree of "bastardisation" that is a little higher than in yours... And it's debatable (Well, *I*'ll gladly debate you on it, anyway! :-) which degree is the "best"; whether your claim that yours is the "best" compromise holds up.

But those are just differences in degree, at least for the most part.



Oh, BTW, there was an LRPD that called for you: "At the tone, please leave a message. *beep*" :-)
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New Wow...my very own LRPD...*blush*
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Seemed more a dripping thorn.. howsomeever -
I hereby retract any inference that you might once have been locked in a room with three dark-complected guys (one named Osama bin-A-Smith) given a few shots, had brain removed, laundered and replaced with..

a Marchant calculator replacing the hypothalamus and a bearer bond replacing the pineal gland.

As to the chicken-egg question re *chosen?? mercantile calculus VS [that usually called life], I will continue to assert that there is growing evidence that the calculus does not (what's the phrase.. promote the general welfare). A flawed system has instead permitted a recursive mechanism by which the already fat may, and do, with consummate ease: extract increasing portions of [all there is] both in material and in power/control .. in all nuances.

* was that like: the Social Contract, say?

Since it is axiomatic that the two concepts must mesh, by your definition; it appears we must next and soon:

1) Alter the the crass mercantile number processing, especially with a focus towards curtailing the growing concentration into mega-corps / mini-governments - consequent homogenization of all 'biz-inefficient' differences across many meanings (both things and ideas). OR

2) Reprogram the inhabitants / redefine life so as to better fit this wondrous Free Market chimera-thingie, so beloved of the folk who like generating systems out of math concepts: because they can - and because it's fun to pretend that the map is 'real'ly the territory. (Numbers are so much neater than messy humans.)

Of the two main choices, well ... obviously some might want to do a bit of both. But the trend is toward pure-2) in any suited meetings, when their notes sometimes seep out into the \ufffdther.

Who gets to exercise power? - that is the question. And who among the most-powerful are willing to cede back: that which they have arrogated to selves via the above recursive mechanism, seen so clearly at play re Messrs. Billy n' Bally?

War - as in actual revolution? Anything less.. for the less macho billionaires? Would we have to kill all the market researchers, economists - not just the lawyers? CIEIOs with a bounty? Swiss bank accounts? Hmmm - declare them Terrorists because -- [similar ends].

How do they address such issues in post-grad mercantile courses these days? At all? (My bet: it isn't even on the class list. It's someone Else's problem)
Ahh - under Terraforming, perhaps?



Ashton
still not sure about that pineal, Bill..
You seem to Like 'conserving' this status, pretty quo (?)
     Shhhhh. Don't tell anyone. The wrong guy's in charge. - (mmoffitt) - (65)
         Yawn.... - (bepatient) - (49)
             Why wouldn't they release the results? - (Silverlock) - (48)
                 Whats the point? - (bepatient) - (47)
                     designed? - (Silverlock) - (46)
                         Ah, but remember "we have to watch what we say/do now" :-( -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                             Damn, I forgot. - (Silverlock)
                         Re: designed? - (bepatient) - (43)
                             How are things in Wonderland? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                 Go ask Alice...when she's ten feet tall. -NT - (bepatient)
                             Of course; that very same freedom of the Corporate press - (Ashton) - (40)
                                 I have discounted US media for a very long time... - (bepatient) - (39)
                                     Yes, of course. - (Ashton) - (34)
                                         Social consequence... - (bepatient) - (33)
                                             So then.. - (Ashton) - (32)
                                                 Minor Nit. - (mmoffitt)
                                                 The part that your missing... - (bepatient) - (28)
                                                     Oh, that's good. - (mmoffitt) - (27)
                                                         OoaT (Off on a Tangent) - (drewk) - (6)
                                                             Don't assume static output. - (mmoffitt)
                                                             I don't see it that way - (Silverlock) - (4)
                                                                 It's the shift to a service industry, too - (drewk) - (3)
                                                                     Yes, that's the scale I'd prefer to think about - at least - (Ashton)
                                                                     Star Trek - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                         ..Yeah .. but___ it's a *dry heat*____________________:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton)
                                                         Hmm... - (bepatient) - (19)
                                                             Nice Try. - (mmoffitt) - (15)
                                                                 So you don't like averages - (bepatient) - (14)
                                                                     You are nothing, if not a gentleman. - (mmoffitt)
                                                                     Addendum. - (mmoffitt) - (12)
                                                                         I read the link... - (bepatient) - (11)
                                                                             That last does tend to indicate, however - (Ashton) - (10)
                                                                                 Dismal Science. - (bepatient) - (9)
                                                                                     Are you describing, endorsing or wishing? - (Ashton)
                                                                                     Aren't you putting de SCART before the hobby-horse? - (CRConrad) - (7)
                                                                                         Boy did you guys miss my point. - (bepatient) - (6)
                                                                                             I didn't study Econ, but I'm not following this. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                                                                 It may be a minor nit.... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                     Much better! - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                                         Wow...my very own LRPD...*blush* -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                                     Seemed more a dripping thorn.. howsomeever - - (Ashton)
                                                                                             OK, sorry -- I was going to ask, but must have forgotten: - (CRConrad)
                                                             Per capita income is *not* the same as wages - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                 I believe... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                     I don't see it there - (ben_tilly)
                                                 Ashton...Haven't you just recited the Ferengi constitution? -NT - (jb4) - (1)
                                                     Is there a difference - theirs / ours *in practice* ? - (Ashton)
                                     One thing that NPR carries... - (inthane-chan) - (3)
                                         Most convenient. - (bepatient) - (2)
                                             Yes - when you're near an internet connection. - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                                 Quite so, quite so. -NT - (bepatient)
         Of *course* the wrong guy's in charge. - (marlowe) - (14)
             For once... - (inthane-chan) - (10)
                 Why did the ground under my feet just move? - (bepatient) - (9)
                     Even more agreement: exactly! - (Ashton)
                     OK. Who would have been the "right" guy or gal? - (Another Scott) - (5)
                         If they'd given us a choice between McCain and Bradley... - (marlowe)
                         Karl Marx. But he's dead. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                         Oh, great, had to go and ruin it, eh? - (admin) - (1)
                             They don't call me "Threadkiller" for nothin' ya know. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                         Thats an easy one... - (bepatient)
                     That's twice in one year... - (jb4) - (1)
                         I think I just saw the Devil's breath! -NT - (bepatient)
             New ski resort opens in hell! - (Silverlock) - (1)
                 Yabut - that's only about the stark fact. - (Ashton)
             Concur. -NT - (mmoffitt)

Your boredness knob must go to 11...
85 ms