Asking you all to be honest...

Post #134,919 by Nightowl 1/12/04 12:15:06 AM 1/12/04 12:38:08 AM Reply	Asking you all to be honest... I have a question, and I would like complete honesty in the responses ok? My posts have been accused of being too "self-centered" and I would genuinely like to know what that actually means? I get very confused between selfish and self-centered, and yes, I've looked them up, but the meaning differs from person to person. I was told by my counselor that I was thinking more of others than myself first, than I used to, and that I was a lot less "self-centered" and I still believe that I've made huge progress in that. But honest feedback from your peers is sometimes the best way to judge yourself and see how you appear to them, so I am asking you all. Do all my posts seem completely self-centered, (including the one about my car), and if so, please explain what makes them so? If not, just say no and you don't need to explain. Thank you, because I am really trying to do less of whatever aggravates people, and I truly believed I was succeeding some. Nightowl >8# P.S. DeSitter, please refrain from responding to this post, I already know your view. Edit: P.P.S.S. If no one BUT DeSitter responds, I'm going to assume that the rest of you don't have a problem with me. "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley Edited by Nightowl Jan. 12, 2004, 12:16:14 AM EST Edited by Nightowl Jan. 12, 2004, 12:38:08 AM EST Expand All History
Post #134,923 by deSitter 1/12/04 12:31:16 AM Reply	Re: Asking you all to be honest... The one thing in human interaction you can't hide or fake or subvert is compassion. You have none - everything comes through your self-locked lens. That is what drives me up the wall. To you, compassion is an act. In truth, compassion is a reaction - a genuine love of others expressed through feeling their pain and joy, not acting compassionate. The fake compassion you peddle is something our society has created to make it possible for us to be self-serving hedonists without guilt. It is destructive in the extreme. A society without real, unforced compassion is as good as dead. -drl
Post #134,925 by Nightowl 1/12/04 12:34:47 AM Reply	You just don't listen. (new thread) Created as new thread #134924 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=134924\|You just don't listen.] "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #134,931 by broomberg 1/12/04 12:52:11 AM Reply	Peers? Touchy area. We started as a technology focused discussion group based on a magazine's web site. So almost all of the originals have a strong tech focus. Even people like Beep who are not tech for a living know more tech than most people. So this seems to be the basis for membership in the "peer" group. Even people like Norm (who to me seems to waffle between crazy, dumb as a brick, and then moments of serious tech competency / knowledge) show aspects of this. If there are non tech people here, I really don't notice them. They don't make themselves so obviously known as you do. So there is no starting point for me to judge you on the tech side, which means you start with minus points. I dunno about the self-centered aspect. I think we all are. I know I am. I don't consider anything wrong with it. I don't give a shit what people think about my personal attitude, but I do care about people who's knowledge I respect and how they feel about me. It's part of making sure I don't get locked out of a source of knowledge. I consider most people here have a wealth of information that I'm happy to suck out, occasionally using one to sharpen my debate skills. I think you invite people pissing on you. You don't really come to the table with anything of value. You don't supply any critical information, your entertainment value drops like a rock when you start whining, and your political views are based on faith rather than reason, which really pisses some people off. Almost everyone here is non-religious. Those that are seem to have enough knowledge about their religion and the world around them to consider the time and place for it. When you talk about prayer outside the context of the Religion forum, you lose points. Non religious people to NOT want you praying for them. Even religious people of a different faith do NOT want you praying for them. Let me rephrase that. We don't care if you pray for us, we would rather you not tell us. Kind of like if I told you I had a lovely Satanic ritual with you in mind. You talk about a right to be here. We have NO rights here. We are guests. We are here because our host allows it. A few of us spend a lot of time and money allowing it to happen. I'm not one of them, so I have no claim to this bit of cyberspace other than the fact I'm an old-timer and hopefully I provide enough entertainment and information that people want to read my posts.
Post #134,933 by Nightowl 1/12/04 12:59:56 AM Reply	Re: Peers? If there are non tech people here, I really don't notice them. They don't make themselves so obviously known as you do. So there is no starting point for me to judge you on the tech side, which means you start with minus points. No problem, I don't recall being asked to be judged on the tech side. :) I dunno about the self-centered aspect. I think we all are. I know I am. I don't consider anything wrong with it. I don't give a shit what people think about my personal attitude, but I do care about people who's knowledge I respect and how they feel about me. It's part of making sure I don't get locked out of a source of knowledge. I consider most people here have a wealth of information that I'm happy to suck out, occasionally using one to sharpen my debate skills. And that is why I'm here. Because this place is a source of a wealth of knowledge, both technical AND non-technical. And because everyone here for the most part is fairly interesting. :) Your post is appreciated and noted. Thank you for your honesty. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #134,939 by Nightowl 1/12/04 1:27:55 AM 1/12/04 1:57:24 AM Reply	Meant to address this too :) You talk about a right to be here. We have NO rights here. We are guests. We are here because our host allows it. A few of us spend a lot of time and money allowing it to happen. I'm not one of them, so I have no claim to this bit of cyberspace other than the fact I'm an old-timer and hopefully I provide enough entertainment and information that people want to read my posts. That's what I meant by a right to be here, Scott and the other admins and the host give us the right to be here as guests, and as long as we conduct ourselves in the proper ways, we can stay. But what I meant by that is that any member has just as much right to be here as any other member, whether they post often, sometimes or not at all, as long as they follow the rules. Edit: Also I'm not sure what you mean about my political beliefs being based on faith, because my political beliefs have nothing to do with my religion. Do you want to explain what you meant? If not, that's ok, just curious. :) Nightowl >8# P.S. added "as guests" to line 2, and added comment about political beliefs. "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley Edited by Nightowl Jan. 12, 2004, 01:28:56 AM EST Edited by Nightowl Jan. 12, 2004, 01:57:24 AM EST Expand All History
Post #134,961 by Ashton 1/12/04 7:05:23 AM Reply	What is this "rights" stuff? One is read, replied to or ignored: on the basis of CONTENT of posts. And while that content may vary from the ludicrous to the profound -if we're lucky- it's nonsense to speak of "a Right to be here", except in terms of its negative: on only a few occasions have we had to face the issue of expulsion. If someone proves to have little of interest to say, then there will eventually be few or no replies. Don't need no stinkin 'procedures' 99+% of the time. Call it benign anarchy. While it's true that any script kiddie might drop in here - as occurred in Episode XVIII of an earlier Norm flameout.. when he invited over some brain dead Mac VS non-Mac VS {absence of intelligent thought #1} idiocy: It was made clear that these children could NOT bring in their mondo-graphic sigs, inane balderdash - and play here. There's consensus that - nobody wants to get into Throwing People Out.. unless and until they become a palpably disruptive irritant (and no: there is no algorithm for setting forth all the possible things that might mean). As has been suggested in this thread - CONTENT [on SOME topic] is the common denominator of 'approval'. Also said, the original nucleus formed in the IW technical forum - mainly around 'IT' matters, but often with oblique refs to quite different things. Little interest in pop psych (I observe over the years) - to name just one obv topic that produces ZZZzzzzs. This is not "a support group" for any and all comers; accomodate the moods and wit of the participants or don't; whining earns eBay negative feedback. Anything from aardvarks to Zoroaster can.. work; nobody can show someone else how "to Be 'Interesting'", y'know? Obviously, minute attention to "procedures" won't do it. (And as you've noticed, "psych / therapy" appears to be interesting only as an object of scorn.) HTH
Post #134,982 by Nightowl 1/12/04 11:09:49 AM Reply	I explained that. It was simple, everyone has a "right" to join any public group on the net, as long as they play by the rules of whoever runs it. I never even hinted I had a right to be a)liked, b) responded to c)read or d) not ignored. Have a nice day Ashton. Brenda "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #134,979 by orion 1/12/04 10:55:57 AM Reply	About my postings here So this seems to be the basis for membership in the "peer" group. Even people like Norm (who to me seems to waffle between crazy, dumb as a brick, and then moments of serious tech competency / knowledge) show aspects of this. I think that my illness cycles between those things. A sign of my schtizoaffective disorder. It is almost bipolar, but not quite. I haven't quite figured out the cycle yet, but I was told that I could have an episode for two weeks at a time. Yes there are momments of clarity, which prove I am not an idiot. Of course I could just be an idiot savant who is only good in Windows technologies. ;) *"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"*
Post #134,936 by ben_tilly 1/12/04 1:10:56 AM 1/12/04 1:39:16 AM Reply	My honest response Think twice about public displays of validation, either validating someone else, or validating yourself. Validation is necessary, yes. It is absolutely key. But the only validation that matters in the end is your own self-validation. Which never has to be said. And that can't be given. Either to you, or by you. Public cheerleading, no matter how well-intentioned, is a poor substitute. And attempting to fill yourself on something that is emotionally unsatisfying leads to gorging behaviour. But still doesn't satisfy. (I know some examples that..well, let's just say that I know some extreme illustrations of the principle that external validation can't make up for a lack of internal validation. Ever.) Furthermore bystanders can tell that it feels fake. And are likely to dislike it. Speaking personally, when you and Norm get to consoling each other, that is how I react. A book that touches on this topic (in a different context) is [link\|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805058265/103-3954996-4747866?v=glance\|Passionate Marriage]. This is the best relationship book that I know of. (Not that I've put a lot of energy into relationship books...) A key point involves "self-soothing". It is very common to see relationships where one or both members of the couple use the other to prop themselves up emotionally. The result isn't very stable, and the resulting fear blocks the relationship from going anywhere good. The lesson is more general than marriage, but you can see it very clearly there. A person who can't heal themselves emotionally, can't heal anyone else. And someone who can heal themselves, knows that they can't really heal anyone else. Cheers, Ben UPDATE The word "either" was misplaced... "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi] Edited by ben_tilly Jan. 12, 2004, 01:39:16 AM EST Expand All History
Post #134,937 by Nightowl 1/12/04 1:12:31 AM 1/12/04 1:15:20 AM Reply	Re: My honest response Okay, so noted... But is that the answer to what self-centered is? Self-validation? Thanks Ben. Nightowl >8# P.S. And did you mean "can't" in the first part of the last sentence instead of can? I presume that you did, because can doesn't make sense. "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley Edited by Nightowl Jan. 12, 2004, 01:15:20 AM EST Expand All History
Post #134,940 by ben_tilly 1/12/04 1:28:28 AM Reply	You reversed the meaning When self-validation is working well, then you aren't self-centered, because your self is satisfied. If you don't know how to handle your own fears and issues, then attempts to fill your own needs causes a very visible focus that comes across as being self-centered. On the last sentence, I meant exactly what I said. Nobody can truly heal anyone else. Healthy people, who know from experience what you have to do for yourself, inevitably recognize this. Unhealthy people commonly don't. Barring chemical intervention (IMHO far too often used), the most that you can do is nudge people towards better habits. At the remove of a text-only interface, it is virtually impossible to even do that. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #134,941 by Nightowl 1/12/04 1:30:50 AM Reply	Re: You reversed the meaning When self-validation is working well, then you aren't self-centered, because your self is satisfied. If you don't know how to handle your own fears and issues, then attempts to fill your own needs causes a very visible focus that comes across as being self-centered. Ah ok, that makes more sense. On the last sentence, I meant exactly what I said. Nobody can truly heal anyone else. Healthy people, who know from experience what you have to do for yourself, inevitably recognize this. Unhealthy people commonly don't. Okay the statement was: "And someone who can heal themselves, knows that they can't really heal anyone else either." So you meant it to say exactly what it says above, that even if you can heal yourself, you can't heal anyone else? Okay, sorry. I had thought maybe it meant to say, "Someone who can't heal themselves knows that they can't really heal anyone else either." Thanks for explaining it, Ben. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #134,942 by ben_tilly 1/12/04 1:39:49 AM Reply	Oops, I'd left in the word "either" wrongly "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #134,943 by Nightowl 1/12/04 1:46:02 AM 1/12/04 1:58:17 AM Reply	Huh? Ben wrote:>>Oops, I'd left in the word "either" wrongly<< Now I'm more confused than ever. The statement indicates that even if you CAN heal yourself, you still can't heal anyone else, is that the bottom line? Edit: I reread your edited post, and now I get it. :) And one more question before I head to bed... What does the thread about my car have to do with self-centeredness or validation, or does it? All I was asking was informed opinions about what I'd been told. Thanks Brenda "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley Edited by Nightowl Jan. 12, 2004, 01:58:17 AM EST Expand All History
Post #134,973 by ben_tilly 1/12/04 10:08:06 AM Reply	NFC about your car discussion I skipped that thread and so can't comment. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #134,945 by deSitter 1/12/04 1:47:23 AM Reply	Re: You reversed the meaning (new thread) Created as new thread #134944 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=134944\|Re: You reversed the meaning] -drl
Post #134,955 by bepatient 1/12/04 2:49:24 AM Reply	You want honest. Cut this crap out. Its tiring. Post about >stuff<. You have a tendency to post about you. (Like this one) Stop it. I don't care what your counselor said. I don't wanna know. Every time I think you're getting better about it...BAM...another one of these posts. Same for Norm. Sparks...every once in a while a spark...then back to this same old "woe is me" stuff. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} It goes in, it must come out._{Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #134,956 by pwhysall 1/12/04 3:02:00 AM Reply	+1, Insightful Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #134,981 by Nightowl 1/12/04 11:08:29 AM Reply	Point taken. I posted this thread to get an understanding of whatever it is I'm doing that upsets people, so that I can stop it. It's working, and I appreciate that, because you can't change or fix it if you don't understand what it is. :) Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,028 by tuberculosis 1/12/04 1:01:10 PM Reply	Ditto! This is a public BBS - anytime you are writing a note it had better be (potentially) of interest to more than one person. The vast majority of this crap does not qualify. There's no crying in baseball!
Post #134,980 by orion 1/12/04 11:05:00 AM Reply	I can honestly tell you that you are not self-centered and do think of other people. I cite as evidence all the cards you've sent me and my family. Your concern and compassion are geniune, and despite my behavior you have always been there for me. Yes a way to get better is to start thinking about yourself instead of always thinking about others. Learn to forgive yourself, and do what you can to heal and get better. Still think about others, but do not do it 100% of your time. Maybe half of the time or whatever you think is fair. I remember your Superbowl parties, you made sure that everyone was happy, everyone had a seat, and that there was plenty of food and drinks. You kept in contact with most of our friends and family. In fact you have been to funerals in my family, and would have been to Great-Aunt's/Grandma's Grace's funeral if you weren't feeling sick or had car problems. I can tell you this, what other people say or think about you does not matter, it is what you think about yourself. Do not let armchair psychologists tell you what they think of you, let certified professionals diagnose you. *"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"*
Post #134,984 by Nightowl 1/12/04 11:11:52 AM Reply	Also noted and understood. :) Thanks Norman. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #134,988 by orion 1/12/04 11:21:24 AM Reply	Another point is that I know you better than anyone else here in the forum. I have known you for over a decade. I was an Usher in your wedding, etc. People cannot be judged by their posts, we all wear masks when we post in a semi-anonymous forum. Posts can only tell so much, but will not give the whole bigger picture. Nobody here in this forum worked in that Haunted House, nobody here in this forum went to your Superbowl parties, nobody here in this forum went to Stake 'N Shake with the group, or bowling at Affinity bowling nights. Nobody in this forum, except for me. A person in real life is much different than their online avatar. I am sure that the IWETHEY'ers who met together must have learned this. I wonder what I am like outside of IWETHEY, there are a few who met me in real life. Do I seem to be the same depressed fckwit in real life that I seem to be on this forum at times? "Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"*
Post #134,991 by ben_tilly 1/12/04 11:32:14 AM Reply	Take this to email This is exactly the kind of self-centered behaviour which is irritating people. There is no need to do it in public. My further advice, as given to Brenda above, is that it is better to realize that it can't do what you need, and don't do this at all. But if you don't take that advice, then you can at least take this thread to email, and all future ones like it. Thank you, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #134,994 by Nightowl 1/12/04 11:37:06 AM 1/12/04 11:45:43 AM Reply	Re: Take this to email I just explained that to him in the Flame Forum, to take it to PA or his IWT Yahoo group. I only want to gather honest feedback in order to change my behavior, that is what this thread was made for, not to be an intense discussion. Thanks. Brenda Edit: It's been moved to his Yahoo group. "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley Edited by Nightowl Jan. 12, 2004, 11:45:43 AM EST Expand All History
Post #134,997 by bepatient 1/12/04 11:39:54 AM Reply	Thank you Ben for pointing that out. +5 for correct. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} It goes in, it must come out._{Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #135,037 by Andrew Grygus 1/12/04 1:31:14 PM Reply	It's just amazing . . . . . that three people can be so utterly impervious to clues. We've tried the clue, the clue bat, the clueXfour, and more. I doubt the clue 18-wheeler will be any more effective. Perhaps the clue Metrolink? This site is home to a technical community. Yes, it's a community, and we all have lives (at least to some extent), so we socialize a bit and argue a bunch - about things and events. In general, we keep our private stuff private, 'cause that's where it belongs. This is not a group therapy site where the three of you should be working out your personal "issues", serious though they are. This just isn't the appropriate place, but the three of you insist on splashing that crap all over the site anyway. Let me assure you, we are not interested. You are needlessly increasing the noise level and damaging your own public images. Remember too that everything you post here will be open and searchable on the Internet for a good long time and may well come back to haunt you. Yes, I agree, all three of you are terribly insecure and need therapy of some sort, but not here, OK? [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #135,039 by Nightowl 1/12/04 1:37:30 PM Reply	I don't ever get clues. Use straight talk with me always, and you'll get results. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,058 by Andrew Grygus 1/12/04 2:14:06 PM Reply	OK The three of you from St Louis are a bunch of insecure, self centered loonies. We already know that, and we don't need to hear any more about it to convince us, so just shut up stop embarrassing yourselves. Yes I realize the three of you are totally impervious to the fact you're embarrassing yourselves, so I'm telling you you are so you'll know and won't have to ask over and over. If you have something to say about technical issues and/or current events that's beyond 3rd grade level, and can keep your own looney "issues" out of it, we'll read your posts and respond. If you can't keep your "issues" out of it, then just keep your hands off the keyboard. Is that direct enough? [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #135,061 by Nightowl 1/12/04 2:21:19 PM Reply	Yep Thanks for your honesty, Andrew. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,064 by Andrew Grygus 1/12/04 2:37:35 PM Reply	And don't think for a moment that I don't know . . . . that your purported imperviousness to clues is just a strategy to force me to be brutally direct so you can feel martyred. End of game. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #135,067 by Nightowl 1/12/04 2:47:56 PM Reply	Believe what you want But I've never correctly read hints or clues all my life, so I rely on direct information, no matter how bad it is. It's called constructive criticism, but it's beneficial. I don't feel martyred at all, I'm not upset, I'm not distressed, I'm happy to be gathering straight and honest feedback. Thanks Andrew. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,093 by orion 1/12/04 4:44:37 PM Reply	We took it to another place or at least Owl and I did. My Yahoo Group. *"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"*
Post #135,063 by CRConrad 1/12/04 2:33:25 PM Reply	That means you're too stupid to be here. HTH!
Post #135,068 by Nightowl 1/12/04 2:48:54 PM Reply	Re: That means you're too stupid to be here. HTH! And sometimes that's true. ;) I don't get probably 50% of your humor, hints and inuendos, but hey, at least I try. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,394 by Nightowl 1/13/04 11:22:36 AM Reply	What you don't like about my posts so far... Okay, so far I have gathered the following items from this thread. 1) I don't come to the table with anything of value in my posts. 2) Non-religious people don't want me praying for them (posting that I am). 3) I should not use the word pray anywhere but the religious forum (using it here only in context). 4) People don't like me to whine (although I'm not sure when/how I do that, because I don't recall posting in a whiny fashion). 5)I invite people pissing on me (not sure about this one either, but not saying it couldn't be true). 6) Apparently I'm not interesting enough. 7) I should not show public displays of validation (for me or others)... one question though, isn't that what we do when we congratulate someone on a new job, encourage them when they lose one or comment when they are ill? A little confused here too). 8) My posts are too self-centered, (although no one has truly answered the question of exactly what is meant by that, or if my car posts were as well). 9) I post about myself too much. 10)When Norman and I post to one another it irritates people. 11) and I don't get clues (although I probably can't do anything to change this one, sorry). I'm gathering all this information in order to change my behavior to be a better iwetheyer in 2004, so if anyone else has anything to add, feel free... state the things you can't stand about my posts now and they will be taken under consideration for change. :)I'm trying to wrap this topic up by tonight. And I thank you all sincerely for your honesty and straight talk, that is what I deal with the best in communication. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,396 by pwhysall 1/13/04 11:27:17 AM Reply	Extract head from /dev/ass Consider that anything you post to Norm and Norm alone should be done via email. RIGHT NOW you're being self-absorbed. Just drop it, go "Got it." and move on to something interesting. Exercise for Brenda: Count the number of times you use the word "I" in your posts. Then count the number of times J. Random User - say, for example, me - uses the word "I". Compare and contrast. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #135,398 by Nightowl 1/13/04 11:33:35 AM Reply	Noted. Only thing not understood is how it is being self-asorbed to be trying to change my behavior to be a better member of iwethey. Thanks for the honesty. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,402 by jake123 1/13/04 11:38:02 AM Reply	I think the issue is that most folks want you to stop talking about how to change your behaviour and just do so. You know, I think most people here like you (with the obvious exception). They'd just rather you do things like play the song game, yak about andre (your PC, iirc), wacked out weather in St. Louis, etc, without going into the psychology of it all... --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #135,409 by Nightowl 1/13/04 11:42:30 AM Reply	Thank you That helps too. Like I said, this thread is ending today, I just was giving everyone else a chance to speak their minds before ending it. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,405 by pwhysall 1/13/04 11:39:12 AM Reply	Key words: "drop it". Stop trying to obtain a recipe for zIWETHEY doubleplusgood newthink and just take on board what's been said, and move on. Between BeeP, Gryge and myself, you have all the information you need. Take it forward, and start by posting about stuff, instead of introspective internet touchy-feely tree-hugging hippie crap like the rubbish you and Norm have been posting to each other. Go yak about cars. Go yak about hockey. That's STUFF. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #135,406 by Nightowl 1/13/04 11:40:57 AM 1/13/04 11:43:41 AM Reply	Thank you! Much better explanation. Nightowl >8# P.S. You see, telling me to get my head out of my ass means absolutely nothing to me, I have no idea what it means. So this was better. :) "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley Edited by Nightowl Jan. 13, 2004, 11:43:41 AM EST Expand All History
Post #135,445 by jb4 1/13/04 12:40:09 PM Reply	Does "me" count, too? or /me? ;-) jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #135,446 by pwhysall 1/13/04 12:43:00 PM Reply	Don't make /me come over there... Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #135,449 by bepatient 1/13/04 12:45:54 PM Reply	fwap If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} It goes in, it must come out._{Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #135,401 by bepatient 1/13/04 11:36:41 AM 1/13/04 11:37:40 AM Reply	Look at that post for an example Not the 11 points it contains. The subject matter. Post edit... AND THERE IS NO NEED TO RESPOND TO THIS!!!! If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} It goes in, it must come out._{Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Jan. 13, 2004, 11:37:40 AM EST Expand All History
Post #135,420 by ben_tilly 1/13/04 11:49:51 AM Reply	On item 7, congratulations vs validation When something good happens to someone, it is nice to let them know that someone shares in their happiness. When something bad happens to someone, conversely. This is healthy behaviour. That is entirely different than constantly telling people that they are OK just as they are for no real reason than to prop up their egos. Particularly with someone like Norm who has a history of doing anything to get attention, including inventing problems to get sympathy. (Yes, I'm thinking of his creating logins that attack himself...) Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #135,421 by Nightowl 1/13/04 11:53:15 AM Reply	Much better, thanks! I appreciate the explanation. :) Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,467 by jbrabeck 1/13/04 1:20:23 PM Reply	Don't be so "midwest nice" Was going to say Minnesota Nice. There is no need to reply to EVERY post. You don't need to say thank you EVERY time someone says something to you. (see above post) I just checked the user stats. You have been here a year. You just passed dmarker who has been here since 2001 and are closing in on Arkadiy, who also joined in 2001. Your personal conversations would be better served via email instead of the open forum. (Which has been said before.) WRT "prayer". I interpret "I'll keep you in my prayers" to be a sign of concern and would NOT discourage you using it. May upset some people, but offer comfort to others. On the whole, bring something to your posts. I'm not interested in your local fire, weather, Shrub visits, or other events, unless the event has a greater meaning. end of rant... "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." 1 Peter 1:24-25
Post #135,574 by Nightowl 1/13/04 10:37:04 PM 1/13/04 10:39:17 PM Reply	One more thing to decide -- the issue of praying And I'm done with this research. Regarding several comments in jrabeck's post: Was going to say Minnesota Nice. There is no need to reply to EVERY post. You don't need to say thank you EVERY time someone says something to you. (see above post) I am trying to do less of that. In this case I mostly thanked people so that they knew that I got what they said, or finally understood their points. Your personal conversations would be better served via email instead of the open forum. (Which has been said before.) Well Norman and I have moved ours to his IWT Yahoo group. I prefer not to make a bunch of back and forth emails on a daily basis, because I save and store all my mail, and it becomes quite a job. So we moved it to his group. As for anyone else, I don't know how to write anyone else on here other than Scott, and I would have to ask them before emailing them. They also might not want my email, so that has to be considered. But your point is noted and gotten. That brings us to the final, slightly sticky issue... praying for people who are ill or need a job, etc. WRT "prayer". I interpret "I'll keep you in my prayers" to be a sign of concern and would NOT discourage you using it. May upset some people, but offer comfort to others. I could change the wording if it is the word "prayer" or "praying" that upsets people. I could say any number of things from, "I'll keep you in my thoughts and intercessions." to "I'll include you on my list" to any number of other things that don't include the word prayer. IF no one objects to that, I'll give that a try. If it still offends people, I'll find a way that does not. Thanks for the input... If anyone has anything to add about any of these final items, particularly the prayer one, please do. I will end this thread tonight when I go to bed, if not sooner, unless something opens it up again that must be addressed. I appreciate your patience while I gathered this information and researched the problems. Brenda Nightowl >8# P.S. As an aside, if you stated you had a satanic ritual with me in mind, I would not be offended. I figure it is your way of things. Edit: changed subject line. "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley Edited by Nightowl Jan. 13, 2004, 10:39:17 PM EST Expand All History
Post #135,580 by ben_tilly 1/14/04 12:20:05 AM Reply	Know who you are talking to before offering prayers When it comes to personal prayer, I find it annoying. If you are talking to me, then don't offer. Offering to pray only tells me, "This person hasn't paid enough attention to see that I won't like this." However good the intention may be, it is overwhelmed by the demonstration that you haven't cared enough to pay attention. I might or might not say anything, but that is how I will feel. I am far from alone in this group in this. OTOH other people here, for instance tseliot and static, are Christians, and undoubtably would appreciate the gesture if an occasion called for it. So offering to keep someone in your prayers isn't necessarily inappropriate, but it will be for some. If you aren't sure, then I'd suggest not doing it. I'd strongly not suggest doing it with me, Christian, Scott... Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #135,582 by Nightowl 1/14/04 1:01:37 AM Reply	Very good theoretical solution Problem is it isn't always easy to determine that. Even if someone isn't "religious" sometimes they don't mind prayer. Maybe I'll think of another concept of words entirely that could or not include prayer? I know enough about you from attempting to follow the extra-long religious thread, I believe that I know what you consider yourself to be. However, that doesn't necessarily give me your view on being prayed for by others. This has, of course, but that's not the case with everyone. This might have to be handled in the religion forum if it becomes more tricky, because I promised this thread would end tonight, and that is my intention, to wrap it up before going to bed tonight. However, if anyone misses out on adding input here they can still do so tomorrow or in the coming days, and I will still read it, but most likely not respond unless it's big enough to be handled on it's own. And as another note, please remember that you can always give me input, feedback, tell me what you don't like at ANY time, about any post. If you tell me calmly, clearly and straight up what's wrong, I promise, I'll always listen. (Unless you are just flaming and attacking me, that's not the same). Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,588 by Nightowl 1/14/04 2:20:16 AM Reply	Here's what I'll do about the prayer issue I've decided to handle the praying issue as such: 1. I will do my best not to indicate actual prayer for anyone whom I am unsure about or know that they do not want it in a post. I will instead include the person in my daily thoughts and concerns, or something like that. 2. IF you ask me to pray for you, or indicate you want prayer, (both have happened before), I will post that I will do it, or give some other indication that you will be prayed for. 3. IF I screw up and mention the word prayer or praying for you before thinking, I apologize in advance, because this will take some real work to change, as it is my nature to post that. So maybe cut me a little slack while I work on that change. :) 4. If this remains an issue of any sort, we'll revisit it later in the religion forum. Fair enough? Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Post #135,589 by Nightowl 1/14/04 2:24:32 AM Reply	And finally, closing this thread. I'm done here now, in this thread. I've obtained the information I needed to become a better iwetheyer. :) If you still have something to say to this thread, as stated before, I will read it and take it under consideration. Otherwise, start a new one to me, or if it's about the prayer issue, maybe it should be replied to in the religion forum. If someone states something in this thread I feel MUST be dealt with or responded to, I'll also do that in another forum or another thread, but only if really really necessary. :) Thank you for your patience, time and input. One of my New Year's Resolutions is to become a better iwetheyer, and this will help. Nightowl >8# "It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman "Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley

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