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New Reasons for terrorism
Not, as noted before, excuses.

Where to f*ing start...

Well, first there were the Crusades. :-) [No, that's important!]

The Brits had most of the Middle East as part of the Em-pah up until WWII. One of the things they did was the Balfour Declaration, which among other things was the first notion of the State of Israel. That was in 1917, and what they were trying to do was get Jewish support in WWI. The Arabs... reacted badly :-) Some Jews tried to move to Palestine, purchasing land and homes there, and the Arabs killed some and ran most of the rest out. The Brits tried to protect them, but failed.

Then came WWII and the "final solution". Note that, at the time, the U.S. was only faintly less anti-Semitic than the Nazis; at one point a shipload of Jewish refugees was trying to find a place to land, and nobody would accept them, especially the U.S. -- after the war, embarrassed by the treatment the Jews had gotten and their tacit acceptance of same, the Allies decided to implement the Balfour Declaration and set up the State of Israel in Palestine.

As far as the Arabs were concerned this was just an extension of the Crusades. The Crusaders set up governments in the Holy Land, with taxes and the whole bit; from the Arab point of view, Israel is just the latest in a succession of Crusader States. The Arab states in the vicinity told the Arabs living in Palestine to get out, so they could have a clear field to wipe out the Jews and eliminate Israel. They failed miserably.

The Palestinians became an embarrassment. The Arab states couldn't let them go home; there was every possibility that the Jews would live up to their declarations of religious freedom and civil rights, and that would eliminate the Arabs' justification for wiping Israel out. On the other hand, the Arab states couldn't accept the Palestinians themselves; for one thing, there were too many of them for comfort, and for another, if Palestinians disappeared as a people, there would again be little justification for hostility toward Israel. The Palestinians sat in their camps, broke, homeless, and hopeless, and festered. One of the reasons the Palestinians are so nasty is that they are simply irrelevant to the rest of the conflict, except as symbols -- heads on poles to excite the rest of the faithful -- and they know it.

Along about this time the mullahs [Islamic equivalent of a parish priest, more or less] noticed that Western ways were starting to corrupt the young. Civil rights for women, beard-shaving, and secular authority were creeping up on their powers and privileges. The mullah of a mosque in a poor town in Islamic lands is the final authority on most anything; many of them didn't want to give that up, and they began preaching "Islamic Fundamentalism", a direct analogue of Christian Fundamentalism here and in Europe.

In Iran, then called "Persia", the Soviet Union was sponsoring a fairly successful Socialist reform. The CIA went in, eliminated the Socialists [with substantial help from the locals, not all of whom liked the idea] and set the Pahlevis on the throne of Iran. The Pahlevis were "enlightened despots", who ruled by decree and started forcing Westernization -- cars, women's dress, TV, and all the other things Ashton bemoans :-) The secular government of Iran simply ignored the mullahs and what might be called the Church authority. This threatened the Iranian Islamic clerics' powers and privileges, and they reacted with hostility, and began picking up Islamic Fundamentalism.

Then the United States started seriously extracting oil from the region, especially Saudi Arabia, and that started really bringing Westernization to the Islamic world. How ya gonna keep 'em down on the oasis after they've seen Houston? :-) Islamic Fundamentalism got a boost. The Sons of Ibn Saud [who aren't fundamentally any nicer than the Shah] boosted it further, in order to maintain their own power in Saudi Arabia. Westerners in Saudi Arabia had [and still have] to live in compounds and obey Islamic customs if they venture out; this makes it harder for the U.S. oil companies [who paid for the surveys that found the oil, the wells to extract it, and and and] to simply assert posession. The Saudis also started supporting Fundamentalists elsewhere, and they had lots of oil income to do that with.

Meanwhile Israel was being successful, with the highest standard of living in the region. That was a horrid affront, and the Arab states were properly affronted. Since the Fundamentalists had as their basic thesis that Westernization was bad, and the Jews were importers of Westernization and infidels to boot, they preached that Israel had to be eliminated -- which resonated nicely with the perception among non-Fundamentalists of Israel as a Crusader State.

I don't think anyone here is unimaginative enough to be unable to figure out the rest of it; the details really don't matter. Then along came Osama bin Ladin. Up to that time, things were moving; glacially slowly, but moving. bin Ladin is primarily an agitpropper, a Hitler; he makes great speeches that make Arabs feel good about themselves and their power. If he believes anything it isn't known, but he makes a great show of supporting Fundamentalism, because he thinks [so far quite correctly] that by doing so he can get the Fundamentalists behind him. His goal is to be Saladin, 2000 model -- the Maximum Ruler of the World Islamic State.

There's lots more, but that's enough here.
Regards,
Ric
New But, wait! There is Sadam, the Saladin, 1990 model.
And there are the Israeli fundamentalists, making "facts on the ground" with their "settlements" at any price.

I believe we have recently paid the price for Israeli sins. God (if there was one), protect us from our friends.
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New Re: Reasons for terrorism
That was an excellent rendition of how we got to be so "loved" by the Muslims. The Arabs, in particular, because the populations are so wretchedly poor, must keep some dream. That dream is to return to dear old days of yore when they ruled (what they think of as) the world. I'm a little unclear but that dream, if they were to check it out, would be a Turkish dream because the Ottoman empire that arose ruled them like slaves.

In addition to that, populations at large really want to be free. The U.S. has a tendency to support the status quo because a good business climate demands stability. That means we've supported some pretty despicable regimes. The M. Fundies (and their apologists in the West) get this into their blood and somehow the U.S. is behind every throne and government. I think the U.S. has an attitude that if the people didn't like their government, they'd be like us in 1777 and start their own revolution. Of course, if you are supporting the status quo, you are not on the side of revolutionaries.

There is a dangerous course the West could take if it were to give up the fixation on oil, and give the Arabs what they claim they want. We could push over the Saudi royal family, a bunch of corrupt people who should be first up against the wall. And do the same for Egypt, etc. We could push for democracies.

And the first thing that would happen is the Fundies would act like Hitler, get elected, and then forget about democracy.

There are at least two possible outcomes: (1) the people get so disgusted with the religious storm troopers that they become like Iran. In another generation, I'm willing to be the mullahs will be out of business. (2) the Fundies become essentially like Saddam's regime, out for world power based on nuclear, biological, and chemical means. I do not believe the Fundies are anything more than the creepiest dictators have always used to gain power --- find out what people say they want and use it to gain that power.

By the way, who was the idiot who claimed history was essentially over a few years ago?
Gerard Allwein
New Thanks. This answer's part of my question below.
But there are other people than Muslums that dislike our support of Israel.
How many are involved in this attack I haven't figured out yet.
New Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary

There is sufficient there to argue the case. Of course it is a quick summary but all the major issues you hit on can be backed up with a lot of supporting detail.

The other really big factor that adds to the points raised is the emergence of Arab nationalism in the late 1800s/ early 1900s and how it was blunted by the powers of the day due to the realisation that oil would become a critical commodity.

Some examples of British actions in protecting oil interests include the creation of Kuwait which is an artificial country created out in the desert and chopped off from greater Iraq & handed to a loyal tribe (now filthy rich - benevolent dictators). Then there is Saudi & the UAE ..... Dutch, British & US oil interests played a hand there, but these countries now have their destinies in their own hands, providing no radical Arab decides to sieze control of most or all the oil fields to use as a weapon against others (such as us).

Fact is that oil was nothing to the Arabs before west found a way to exploit it & providing they get a 'fair' reward for its use - that should be ok. As best as I can tell the Arabs get very handsomely rewarded for selling it to the west.

If it now transpires that they want to manipulate it instead of the west then I say give it back to them *but* not until we have found an alternative - up until that time we need to protect the flow.

The other issues about Israel are that it is the only practising democracy in the region. All the cuntries surrounding it are run by dictators. In one sense it shines as a beacon of advanced democracy and how it could work if given a fair chance.
The bits about how the Palestinians are the whipping post for Arab desire to destroy Israel, can be fairly debated except you won't find many Arabs who can debate it rationally. Most of them have completely forgotten how the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem(?), exhorted his fellow Arabs in the 1940s to drive the Jews into the ocean & kill then all - but to flee from them when they couldn't achieve the 1st goal.

Cheers

Doug Marker




New Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary

There is sufficient there to argue the case. Of course it is a quick summary but all the major issues you hit on can be backed up with a lot of supporting detail.

The other really big factor that adds to the points raised is the emergence of Arab nationalism in the late 1800s/ early 1900s and how it was blunted by the powers of the day due to the realisation that oil would become a critical commodity.

Some examples of British actions in protecting oil interests include the creation of Kuwait which is an artificial country created out in the desert and chopped off from greater Iraq & handed to a loyal tribe (now filthy rich - benevolent dictators). Then there is Saudi & the UAE ..... Dutch, British & US oil interests played a hand there, but these countries now have their destinies in their own hands, providing no radical Arab decides to sieze control of most or all the oil fields to use as a weapon against others (such as us).

Fact is that oil was nothing to the Arabs before west found a way to exploit it & providing they get a 'fair' reward for its use - that should be ok. As best as I can tell the Arabs get very handsomely rewarded for selling it to the west.

If it now transpires that they want to manipulate it instead of the west then I say give it back to them *but* not until we have found an alternative - up until that time we need to protect the flow.

The other issues about Israel are that it is the only practising democracy in the region. All the cuntries surrounding it are run by dictators. In one sense it shines as a beacon of advanced democracy and how it could work if given a fair chance.
The bits about how the Palestinians are the whipping post for Arab desire to destroy Israel, can be fairly debated except you won't find many Arabs who can debate it rationally. Most of them have completely forgotten how the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem(?), exhorted his fellow Arabs in the 1940s to drive the Jews into the ocean & kill then all - but to flee from them when they couldn't achieve the 1st goal.

Cheers

Doug Marker




New Re: Reasons for terrorism
A very interesting article [link|http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa01024.html|http://www.sunday-t...sa01024.html]
Here are some relevant quotes:
"Or consider what Elisabetta Burba, an Italian journalist, reported for The Wall Street Journal from Beirut. She saw suited, coiffed professionals cheering in the streets. Then she went into a fashionable cafe. "The cafe's sophisticated clientele was celebrating, laughing, cheering and making jokes, as waiters served hamburgers and Diet Pepsi. Nobody looked shocked or moved. They were excited, very excited," she writes.
"Ninety per cent of the Arab world believes that America got what it deserved," she is told. "An exaggeration?" she comments. "Rather an understatement."
...
So at the most basic level America is loathed simply because she's on top. The world leader is always trashed simply for being the leader.
...
The primary crime is blasphemy against the holiest Islamic soil. One widely circulated picture of two women GIs in a Jeep, their shirts unbuttoned to their waists, driving across the Arabian desert, was enough to inflame the sensibilities of thousands of devout Muslims and to fling the most unstable of them into the arms of the extremists. They had a point but not one that justifies murder."
     The reason for the terrorist attacks (in a nutshell) - (brettj) - (37)
         Perhaps he simply likes explosions and death - (tablizer) - (3)
             Too Much American Movie? - (gdaustin) - (2)
                 "Gironimo"? - (tablizer) - (1)
                     Some say he left at least 4 days ago... - (Another Scott)
         New O'Reilly book? Lemming on the cover?..............Sorry -NT - (Another Scott) - (8)
             How does the destruction of Buddhist shrines by the Taliban - (brettj) - (7)
                 It's complicated. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                     I thought that was simple... - (Simon_Jester) - (5)
                         Let's take this a bit farther. - (brettj) - (2)
                             Not sure what you mean... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                 The Afghan tribes didn't destroy the idols until the Taliban - (brettj)
                         Real tolerant of other religions? - (orion) - (1)
                             Do you mean like.. - (Ashton)
         Reasons for terrorism - (Ric Locke) - (6)
             But, wait! There is Sadam, the Saladin, 1990 model. - (a6l6e6x)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - (gtall)
             Thanks. This answer's part of my question below. - (brettj)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary - (dmarker2)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary - (dmarker2)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - (bluke)
         The pieces to the puzzle are falling into place. - (brettj) - (16)
             How do the Jewish people fit into the picture? - (brettj) - (15)
                 Osama bin Laden quotes. - (a6l6e6x) - (14)
                     Thanks. Here is a LA Times link. - (brettj) - (3)
                         Re: And therein lies the biggest dilemma - (dmarker2) - (2)
                             This is starting to look like a Hitler repeat? - (brettj) - (1)
                                 Uh, that's not how it was, is it? - (CRConrad)
                     Re: Osama bin Laden quotes - the US shame ??? - (dmarker2) - (9)
                         Problem not confined to Islam: organized religion. - (Ashton) - (7)
                             Ashton, don't be afraid to include the Zionists... - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                 But not someone's else wives and children - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                     Re: But not someone's else wives and children - (a6l6e6x)
                             So, your position is that... - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                 Only if it becomes profitable in the US environment - (mhuber) - (2)
                                     Speech != action... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                         The comparison is about 'mindset' only, not probability - (Ashton)
                         Other Osama ignoring - (wharris2)

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