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New Re: Some illumination, perhaps.
I don't think this is completely correct.

"Traditionally", UNIX came on a tape. An installation was tailored for a specific machine to begin with, so all that was needed was to dump the tape into prestructured file systems after answering this and that question about what the layout should be. It was dead simple. Tweaking came later.

So, the modern idea of a UNIX install on a PC has nothing to do with the original idea. I feel that real progress would be made by abandoning the close connection with UNIX as target system, unless you really were shooting for a UNIX clone (a server, that is). Of course, you would need some kind of chroot environment for some programs that expect a traditional layout.
-drl
New When was the last time?
When was the last time you installed from a bootable tape?

I haven't done it since HP-UX v9.04. EVERYTHING, and *I* mean every *NIX system I have installed booted from CD or Network to start and Install. The same could be done for and upgrade on most "commercial" *NIX.

I usually chose the Online upgrade packages as needed and wanted approach. I never did fully upgrade from AIX 4.2.0fp6 to AIX 4.3.3fp9, as the only real differences were the packages for hardware support. HP-UX, the upgrade from v9.0x to 10.2 was really simple. Put the CD in while running you system and do a "upgrade when possible" style of upgrade. Allowed me to do the upgrade in the background as people were using it.

Oh the last time I booted from a tape was to do a system recovery, which BTW, was easy cheesy. This whole thing about getting away from traditional UNIX is easy in talk, tough in practice.

Easy to install == typically a nightmare to maintain
PITA to install == typically a dream afterwards

That holds with most "R&R" aimed operating systems *ARE* indeed easy to install, you wouldn't want John Q Public Paying for "R&R" support, would you?

That also hold, with most "Install and Maintain" aimed operating systems, they are nearly self maintaining. Then again, you wouldn't have this "revenue base" to rely upon.
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
New Traditional = MesoMIPic Era
i.e. before CDROMs crawled out from under the rocks, following the UNIX ELE (Windows 3.1).

(Ever installed from 8" floppies? :)
-drl
New Sun OS came on a tape in '86. More recent on CD
Don't know when they made the switch over.
New I deliberately didn't mention any vendor Unix.
I have installed HP-UX onto a virgin machine. Well, almost. Actually, I watched while a HP-UX guy did it (I was the sysadmin after he did that - it was my first HP box). Although you had to follow the instructions, it booted from a CD-ROM and was not difficult to do right. Maintaining the patches et al was very RedHat-ish, though, with the sysadmin required to manually download the patches from HP's website.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

     Ok Debian Lovers. :-| - (bepatient) - (42)
         IIRC, picking the 2.4 kernel in dselect - (tseliot)
         Feh. - (pwhysall) - (37)
             Or do what Peter said. :-) -NT - (admin)
             Don't "Feh" me. - (bepatient) - (35)
                 Feh - (kmself) - (34)
                     My point in the overall bitchiness... - (bepatient) - (29)
                         +5, Insightful;. -NT - (static)
                         Why Debian's installer "sucks". - (pwhysall) - (27)
                             Possibly - (bepatient) - (26)
                                 Okay... - (folkert) - (25)
                                     Ditto, with a few additions: - (admin) - (24)
                                         Right. - (bepatient) - (23)
                                             Re: Right. - (deSitter) - (5)
                                                 All you have to do, is really try the thing. - (folkert)
                                                 Begone, vile thing. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                     Re: Begone, vile thing. - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                         Riiiiiiight. -NT - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                             Mostly.. - (deSitter)
                                             I am NOT defending the install. - (admin) - (10)
                                                 Ok already. - (bepatient) - (9)
                                                     "For alot of folks that probably wouldn't be true." - (admin) - (8)
                                                         Re: "For alot of folks that probably wouldn't be true." - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                             I didn't say the assertion was true. - (admin)
                                                         But it could be... - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                             BBBBBBbut.... - (folkert) - (3)
                                                                 Don't worry. - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                     gfolkert wields his new WoMS: - (folkert) - (1)
                                                                         Hey greg, new install question (new thread) - (drewk)
                                                             ObLRPD: This is untested and you're my guinea pig. -NT - (admin)
                                             Some illumination, perhaps. - (static) - (5)
                                                 Re: Some illumination, perhaps. - (deSitter) - (4)
                                                     When was the last time? - (folkert) - (2)
                                                         Traditional = MesoMIPic Era - (deSitter)
                                                         Sun OS came on a tape in '86. More recent on CD - (hnick)
                                                     I deliberately didn't mention any vendor Unix. - (static)
                     Yep, the "piggy" install is really worth a shot, Beep. - (a6l6e6x)
                     I take direct exception. (new thread) - (folkert)
                     Tried Piggy - (Steven A S) - (1)
                         Root password recovery - (kmself)
         Hey, this hurts! Then don't do that... ;-) - (admin)
         Re: Ok Debian Lovers. :-| - (rickmoen) - (1)
             Keep reading... - (bepatient)

Can those of you in the back hear me?
61 ms