IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 1 active user | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

IWETHEY Home / IWETHEY Board / Linux Forum / Some illumination, perhaps.
Post #99,605
by static
Picture of static
5/1/03 8:59:11 AM
Reply
New Some illumination, perhaps.
The problems you cite (and that I also encountered) from installing Debian are not unique to Debian. The *BSD unices are structured to a similar concept and have some of the same characteristics.

I have had the interesting experience of having my workstation at work being migrated from Linux to FreeBSD. I didn't partipicate in the initial install, though. But I did try to help when we had a server to install that wasn't behaving. The FreeBSD installation apparantly allows bad-block detection in the filesystem, if you enable that flag in the partition. But we couldn't figure out how to toggle that flag. And FreeBSD's installer fdisk in "wizard" mode is about as useful as using cp /dev/tty file as a text editor is. :-/

Sound familiar? It seems to have something to do with the philosophy of maintainence. RedHat headed down the path of Make It Easy To Install. Debian did not. Neither did BSD.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.
Post #99,618
by deSitter
Picture of deSitter
5/1/03 10:28:28 AM
Reply
New Re: Some illumination, perhaps.
I don't think this is completely correct.

"Traditionally", UNIX came on a tape. An installation was tailored for a specific machine to begin with, so all that was needed was to dump the tape into prestructured file systems after answering this and that question about what the layout should be. It was dead simple. Tweaking came later.

So, the modern idea of a UNIX install on a PC has nothing to do with the original idea. I feel that real progress would be made by abandoning the close connection with UNIX as target system, unless you really were shooting for a UNIX clone (a server, that is). Of course, you would need some kind of chroot environment for some programs that expect a traditional layout.
-drl
Post #99,633
by folkert
Picture of folkert
5/1/03 10:56:42 AM
Reply
New When was the last time?
When was the last time you installed from a bootable tape?

I haven't done it since HP-UX v9.04. EVERYTHING, and *I* mean every *NIX system I have installed booted from CD or Network to start and Install. The same could be done for and upgrade on most "commercial" *NIX.

I usually chose the Online upgrade packages as needed and wanted approach. I never did fully upgrade from AIX 4.2.0fp6 to AIX 4.3.3fp9, as the only real differences were the packages for hardware support. HP-UX, the upgrade from v9.0x to 10.2 was really simple. Put the CD in while running you system and do a "upgrade when possible" style of upgrade. Allowed me to do the upgrade in the background as people were using it.

Oh the last time I booted from a tape was to do a system recovery, which BTW, was easy cheesy. This whole thing about getting away from traditional UNIX is easy in talk, tough in practice.

Easy to install == typically a nightmare to maintain
PITA to install == typically a dream afterwards

That holds with most "R&R" aimed operating systems *ARE* indeed easy to install, you wouldn't want John Q Public Paying for "R&R" support, would you?

That also hold, with most "Install and Maintain" aimed operating systems, they are nearly self maintaining. Then again, you wouldn't have this "revenue base" to rely upon.
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Post #99,638
by deSitter
Picture of deSitter
5/1/03 11:03:32 AM
Reply
New Traditional = MesoMIPic Era
i.e. before CDROMs crawled out from under the rocks, following the UNIX ELE (Windows 3.1).

(Ever installed from 8" floppies? :)
-drl
Post #99,640
by hnick
5/1/03 11:10:21 AM
Reply
New Sun OS came on a tape in '86. More recent on CD
Don't know when they made the switch over.
Post #99,833
by static
Picture of static
5/2/03 8:48:59 AM
Reply
New I deliberately didn't mention any vendor Unix.
I have installed HP-UX onto a virgin machine. Well, almost. Actually, I watched while a HP-UX guy did it (I was the sysadmin after he did that - it was my first HP box). Although you had to follow the instructions, it booted from a CD-ROM and was not difficult to do right. Maintaining the patches et al was very RedHat-ish, though, with the sysadmin required to manually download the patches from HP's website.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.
     Ok Debian Lovers. :-| - (bepatient) - (42) - April 28, 2003, 11:09:13 AM EDT
         IIRC, picking the 2.4 kernel in dselect - (tseliot) - April 28, 2003, 11:23:37 AM EDT
         Feh. - (pwhysall) - (37) - April 28, 2003, 11:48:41 AM EDT
             Or do what Peter said. :-) -NT - (admin) - April 28, 2003, 11:53:12 AM EDT
             Don't "Feh" me. - (bepatient) - (35) - April 28, 2003, 01:30:37 PM EDT
                 Feh - (kmself) - (34) - April 28, 2003, 04:18:55 PM EDT
                     My point in the overall bitchiness... - (bepatient) - (29) - April 28, 2003, 05:45:27 PM EDT
                         +5, Insightful;. -NT - (static) - April 30, 2003, 08:55:15 AM EDT
                         Why Debian's installer "sucks". - (pwhysall) - (27) - April 30, 2003, 10:30:56 AM EDT
                             Possibly - (bepatient) - (26) - April 30, 2003, 11:04:41 AM EDT
                                 Okay... - (folkert) - (25) - April 30, 2003, 12:00:26 PM EDT
                                     Ditto, with a few additions: - (admin) - (24) - April 30, 2003, 12:28:41 PM EDT
                                         Right. - (bepatient) - (23) - April 30, 2003, 01:17:14 PM EDT
                                             Re: Right. - (deSitter) - (5) - April 30, 2003, 01:21:42 PM EDT
                                                 All you have to do, is really try the thing. - (folkert) - April 30, 2003, 03:25:31 PM EDT
                                                 Begone, vile thing. - (pwhysall) - (3) - April 30, 2003, 04:09:50 PM EDT
                                                     Re: Begone, vile thing. - (deSitter) - (2) - April 30, 2003, 04:12:23 PM EDT
                                                         Riiiiiiight. -NT - (pwhysall) - (1) - April 30, 2003, 04:21:15 PM EDT
                                                             Mostly.. - (deSitter) - April 30, 2003, 04:36:54 PM EDT
                                             I am NOT defending the install. - (admin) - (10) - April 30, 2003, 02:12:38 PM EDT
                                                 Ok already. - (bepatient) - (9) - April 30, 2003, 02:31:07 PM EDT
                                                     "For alot of folks that probably wouldn't be true." - (admin) - (8) - April 30, 2003, 02:45:54 PM EDT
                                                         Re: "For alot of folks that probably wouldn't be true." - (deSitter) - (1) - April 30, 2003, 02:53:10 PM EDT
                                                             I didn't say the assertion was true. - (admin) - April 30, 2003, 02:56:19 PM EDT
                                                         But it could be... - (bepatient) - (5) - April 30, 2003, 04:19:21 PM EDT
                                                             BBBBBBbut.... - (folkert) - (3) - April 30, 2003, 07:06:34 PM EDT
                                                                 Don't worry. - (bepatient) - (2) - May 1, 2003, 10:35:03 AM EDT
                                                                     gfolkert wields his new WoMS: - (folkert) - (1) - May 1, 2003, 10:59:39 AM EDT
                                                                         Hey greg, new install question (new thread) - (drewk) - May 1, 2003, 11:02:22 AM EDT
                                                             ObLRPD: This is untested and you're my guinea pig. -NT - (admin) - April 30, 2003, 07:12:28 PM EDT
                                             Some illumination, perhaps. - (static) - (5) - May 1, 2003, 08:59:11 AM EDT
                                                 Re: Some illumination, perhaps. - (deSitter) - (4) - May 1, 2003, 10:28:28 AM EDT
                                                     When was the last time? - (folkert) - (2) - May 1, 2003, 10:56:42 AM EDT
                                                         Traditional = MesoMIPic Era - (deSitter) - May 1, 2003, 11:03:32 AM EDT
                                                         Sun OS came on a tape in '86. More recent on CD - (hnick) - May 1, 2003, 11:10:21 AM EDT
                                                     I deliberately didn't mention any vendor Unix. - (static) - May 2, 2003, 08:48:59 AM EDT
                     Yep, the "piggy" install is really worth a shot, Beep. - (a6l6e6x) - April 28, 2003, 07:40:52 PM EDT
                     I take direct exception. (new thread) - (folkert) - April 28, 2003, 08:15:16 PM EDT
                     Tried Piggy - (Steven A S) - (1) - May 3, 2003, 08:39:14 PM EDT
                         Root password recovery - (kmself) - May 4, 2003, 04:28:37 PM EDT
         Hey, this hurts! Then don't do that... ;-) - (admin) - April 28, 2003, 11:52:34 AM EDT
         Re: Ok Debian Lovers. :-| - (rickmoen) - (1) - May 10, 2003, 06:43:40 AM EDT
             Keep reading... - (bepatient) - May 10, 2003, 10:30:57 AM EDT

The universe is 98 percent hydrogen and helium... and I'm rather fond of the other 2 percent.
119 ms