Right.

Post #99,476

4/30/03 1:17:14 PM

Right.

But I bring up tasksel and dselect in the initial post to the resounding...>don't use those...they suck!<...if they suck...take them out of the installer and replace them with aptitude. How hard is that? And even as good as that is, clearly there could be a better methodology of allowing what you want installed in the beginning to be selected. (yes greg...there are several selections of web servers...I know I want one installed...can't I pick it during the install??? Sure...but dselect sucks and (decidedly non technical descriptor to follow) crapped out on me twice. Get the picture?)

I'd at least like the opportunity to pick some of the more obvious packages that I know I want to be installed without having to sit around for the next 3 or 4 days searching the archive for deb names and installing...even if that process is easy.

How about probing to configure some hardware? That didn't happen either. Sure...theres some valid reason to make that part a PITA too I'm sure....but it'll all be better>once you get it running<.

I am in full agreement with the ongoing maintenance. apt is superior to rpm in ease of use...clearly.

I >expected< a painful install. I was told by all of you to expect a painful install. So here I come...I have a painful install...tell you it sucks for being so painful...and now get the mad rush to defend the POS install that you all told me before was a POS.

I'm not sure I get it.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #99,477

by deSitter

4/30/03 1:21:42 PM

Re: Right.

Don't even attempt to understand it. It's not possible.

It's just a thing they do.

-drl

Post #99,499

by folkert

4/30/03 3:25:31 PM

All you have to do, is really try the thing.

You would be converted to Ross.

It took about three months before I feel comfortable with Debian. Even then *I* still ask questions.

I'm not defending the POS default installer. Take it from me, IT SUCKS and BLOWS! at the same time.

pgi or fai when worked out, are orders of magnitude better.

And the whole idea is to get a BASE system installed first (most if not all hardware detected and setup properly), then go on from there.

Then and only then do you make the choice "Server" or "Workstation" or a combo of both. Even then it's not written in stone.

[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post #99,501

by pwhysall

4/30/03 4:09:50 PM

Begone, vile thing.

We've had this out before - there is nothing you can add to this conversation.

You need to run Windows XP, because that's an operating system where someone else has made all the decisions for you.

Run along now, dear. Mother knows best.

Post #99,502

by deSitter

4/30/03 4:12:23 PM

Re: Begone, vile thing.

I run Linux all the time, Debbie - just not the "gay lifestyle" version.

-drl

Post #99,507

by pwhysall

4/30/03 4:21:15 PM

Riiiiiiight.

Post #99,509

by deSitter

4/30/03 4:36:54 PM

Mostly..

Ian, I "render unto UNIX what is UNIX's". That is, numerical codes and the like. The desktop UNIX experience is lacking, given that there are no real applications to run on it.

-drl

Post #99,490

by admin

4/30/03 2:12:38 PM

I am NOT defending the install.

I'm telling you one thing: if you don't like it, don't use it, it isn't necessary.

I'd at least like the opportunity to pick some of the more obvious packages that I know I want to be installed without having to sit around for the next 3 or 4 days searching the archive for deb names and installing...even if that process is easy.

Ow, that hurts! Then don't do that. Do a base install. Then apt-get install one of the better package management tools. Then *finish* your install with all the things you know you want. It's difficult/impossible/sucky to do this during the initial install because people don't do it that way UNLESS they're using a distribution that REQUIRES it. We keep telling you not to do that, and you keep saying, "but I WANT to do that!"

On hardware detection: already covered. Use piggy or whatever. Or use Knoppix, write down what you need (it does all the autodetection) and then use that information during the install. Yes, the hardware detect in the default Debian install sucks. We told you that. We also told you to use a different installer if you don't like that. Ow, that hurts! Then don't do that.

The MAIN point: the install sucks when you use it like another distribution. Ow, that hurts! Then don't do that.

Point taken about removing dselect, etc. But I'm not the one to tell that to. File a bug.

I'm not sure I get it.

And I'm not sure I get why you keep doing the things we told you not to do (or they would suck), and then telling us, "hey, that sucks!" No shit, Dick Tracy. Then Don't. Do. That. :-)

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #99,493

by bepatient

4/30/03 2:31:07 PM

Ok already.

Its not just compared to any other Linux distro. The comparison is to every other OS I've ever installed. So there is a different philosophy at play here. Great. Acceptable even.

And trust me. Ouch once. Feet are now wet. You can bet I won't be doing that again. For me, that won't exclude Debian. For alot of folks that probably wouldn't be true.

Like I said. I'll take a look at piggy. If that handles some of the more benign aspects of actually getting an OS to a functional form by the end of the initial install routine...great. I would end up recommending >that< instead of the bootstrap - apt-get routine because it would be more akin to something they've dealt with before.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #99,494

by admin

4/30/03 2:45:54 PM

"For alot of folks that probably wouldn't be true."

The thing is, Debian isn't really for the inexperienced, exactly because the install is so funky. More proof of Ross' assertion that Debian is a mind-game for dweebs, if you want to take it that way. ;-)

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #99,497

by deSitter

4/30/03 2:53:10 PM

Re: "For alot of folks that probably wouldn't be true."

More proof of Ross' assertion that Debian is a mind-game for dweebs, if you want to take it that way. ;-)

And who has time for this?

-drl

Post #99,498

by admin

4/30/03 2:56:19 PM

I didn't say the assertion was true.

Just that you might use it as proof of such. ;-)

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #99,505

by bepatient

4/30/03 4:19:21 PM

But it could be...

..because maintenance and program installation >are< so simple...give it a good installer and it wouldn't have to be relegated to "the experienced"

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #99,535

by folkert

4/30/03 7:06:34 PM

BBBBBBbut....

If it was installable and maintainable by "mere" non-experienced... We'd lose our Snobbian/Dweebian/Deb-O-Snob handles...

Now we *CAN'T* have that.

[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post #99,622

by bepatient

5/1/03 10:35:03 AM

Don't worry.

I'll always call you a snob ;-)

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #99,635

by folkert

5/1/03 10:59:39 AM

gfolkert wields his new WoMS:

The euphemistic *shun*

Yeah I got yur "SNOB" right hear Buddy!

[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post #99,637

by drewk

5/1/03 11:02:22 AM

Hey greg, new install question (new thread)

Created as new thread #99636 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=99636|Hey greg, new install question]

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #99,537

by admin

4/30/03 7:12:28 PM

ObLRPD: This is untested and you're my guinea pig.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #99,605

by static

5/1/03 8:59:11 AM

Some illumination, perhaps.

The problems you cite (and that I also encountered) from installing Debian are not unique to Debian. The *BSD unices are structured to a similar concept and have some of the same characteristics.

I have had the interesting experience of having my workstation at work being migrated from Linux to FreeBSD. I didn't partipicate in the initial install, though. But I did try to help when we had a server to install that wasn't behaving. The FreeBSD installation apparantly allows bad-block detection in the filesystem, if you enable that flag in the partition. But we couldn't figure out how to toggle that flag. And FreeBSD's installer fdisk in "wizard" mode is about as useful as using cp /dev/tty file as a text editor is. :-/

Sound familiar? It seems to have something to do with the philosophy of maintainence. RedHat headed down the path of Make It Easy To Install. Debian did not. Neither did BSD.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed

Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

Post #99,618

by deSitter

5/1/03 10:28:28 AM

Re: Some illumination, perhaps.

I don't think this is completely correct.

"Traditionally", UNIX came on a tape. An installation was tailored for a specific machine to begin with, so all that was needed was to dump the tape into prestructured file systems after answering this and that question about what the layout should be. It was dead simple. Tweaking came later.

So, the modern idea of a UNIX install on a PC has nothing to do with the original idea. I feel that real progress would be made by abandoning the close connection with UNIX as target system, unless you really were shooting for a UNIX clone (a server, that is). Of course, you would need some kind of chroot environment for some programs that expect a traditional layout.

-drl

Post #99,633

by folkert

5/1/03 10:56:42 AM

When was the last time?

When was the last time you installed from a bootable tape?

I haven't done it since HP-UX v9.04. EVERYTHING, and *I* mean every *NIX system I have installed booted from CD or Network to start and Install. The same could be done for and upgrade on most "commercial" *NIX.

I usually chose the Online upgrade packages as needed and wanted approach. I never did fully upgrade from AIX 4.2.0fp6 to AIX 4.3.3fp9, as the only real differences were the packages for hardware support. HP-UX, the upgrade from v9.0x to 10.2 was really simple. Put the CD in while running you system and do a "upgrade when possible" style of upgrade. Allowed me to do the upgrade in the background as people were using it.

Oh the last time I booted from a tape was to do a system recovery, which BTW, was easy cheesy. This whole thing about getting away from traditional UNIX is easy in talk, tough in practice.

Easy to install == typically a nightmare to maintain
PITA to install == typically a dream afterwards

That holds with most "R&R" aimed operating systems *ARE* indeed easy to install, you wouldn't want John Q Public Paying for "R&R" support, would you?

That also hold, with most "Install and Maintain" aimed operating systems, they are nearly self maintaining. Then again, you wouldn't have this "revenue base" to rely upon.

[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post #99,638

by deSitter

5/1/03 11:03:32 AM

Traditional = MesoMIPic Era

i.e. before CDROMs crawled out from under the rocks, following the UNIX ELE (Windows 3.1).

(Ever installed from 8" floppies? :)

-drl

Post #99,640

by hnick

5/1/03 11:10:21 AM

Sun OS came on a tape in '86. More recent on CD

Don't know when they made the switch over.

Post #99,833

by static

5/2/03 8:48:59 AM

I deliberately didn't mention any vendor Unix.

I have installed HP-UX onto a virgin machine. Well, almost. Actually, I watched while a HP-UX guy did it (I was the sysadmin after he did that - it was my first HP box). Although you had to follow the instructions, it booted from a CD-ROM and was not difficult to do right. Maintaining the patches et al was very RedHat-ish, though, with the sysadmin required to manually download the patches from HP's website.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed

Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

Welcome to IWETHEY!