Ah yes....

Post #96,822 by bepatient 4/16/03 11:16:59 AM Reply	Ah yes.... ...and we'll all be goose-stepping to "Springtime for Hitler" before this is all over, right? We elect representatives to >represent<. They are doing just that at the moment. This type of government doesn't sit well with those who get outvoted and/or outpolled. Ask smokers. Our government is also reactionary. And a certain amount of overreaction to the destruction witnessed on our shores is understandable, though I see you content to deride for the ability to comprehend it (as usual). I am also "comfortable" that the egregious examples of over-reaction will be fought back and won by the civil libertarians, in the Courts using the due process that was designed into this Constitution. It has happened before...why would I not be comfortable to see it happen again. It will take a cooling period which you seem to think will never come...opting instead to believe us spinning into the realm of brownshirts, death for dissent et al. And again with Hitler "rhetoric"...believing all blind to his >proven< actions long before his rise to Chancellor. But then again...we have been known to re-elect liars and criminals as well, haven't we...being such a forgiving lot...so maybe we will..after all...begin to salute Heir Bill or Heir Marion for fear of our lives or livelihood. Just look at what happened to poor old Tim...soon to be destitute because his Bull won't be revisited by the Boys of Summer this year. (Mind you I agree with Mr Robbins and will not be attending any ball games in the near future...though not feeling this rises to the jackboot level just yet) And in the future...I guess we'll need to make sure that all candidates are atheists...and we'll need to strike certain words from the dictionary...lest they offend all those with the "liberal" education any longer. That would be suitable, also, since it seems that would put the vast minority in charge...which would allow that vast minority to make sure that the >representative< government would no longer represent "We the People"...but would have fallen to "We the Actors" instead. Ah yes...we are headed down that path... I feel a breeze...must be that hurricane a-blowin...can't be nothin else. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,828 by Silverlock 4/16/03 11:36:26 AM Reply	You missed one thing Beep Quite a few of us have this silly notion that the election was stolen. And you can forget those stupid chad arguments. The 90,000 plus eligible voters scrubbed from the rolls by the republicans carried the day with the Supremes voting against their stated previously held positions being the capstone. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #96,829 by bepatient 4/16/03 11:42:11 AM Reply	Nope... ...just waiting for those who stole it to dissolve the checks and balances...or maybe burn down Congress...precedent has been set, you know. Zeig, baby. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,832 by Silverlock 4/16/03 11:50:10 AM Reply	I don't get you People are genuinely concerned at the direction this country is taking under this administration. They see parralels to fascist regimes. You discount these feelings with ridicule, calling them baseless because not all of the atrocities that were committed by these fascist regimes also have parralels. Are you truly happy with the Government we have? You don't see any drift towards totalitarianism? All is just hunky-dory in the land you live in. I don't think I live in the same land. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #96,843 by bepatient 4/16/03 12:56:56 PM Reply	Lets state it simply. People who claim to see that drift have NO IDEA what it is that they are comparing against. One here seems to understand my point...and pointed out quite eloquently why he is concerned but will NOT go to the lengths of comparing this "regime" to Hitler's Germany and the Nazi's. It is my opinion that those who do have >no idea< what they are talking about. No I am not totally happy with the government we have. I would, however, take this one over any other one in existance today. I also see a governmental over-reaction to an event with only one precedent in our history (protestations to the opposite noted and rejected)...and if you were actually cognizant of that history you might even notice MORE parallels with post Dec 7 USA...as opposed to this crusade to have Hitler and GW Bush mentioned in the same breath. The massive violation of civil liberties post Dec 7 were eliminated. Why would we have any reason to believe this any different a moment in our history. Are y'all really that dense? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,847 by Silverlock 4/16/03 1:20:14 PM Reply	Again with the ridicule Why so defensive and hostile? The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #96,854 by bepatient 4/16/03 1:53:53 PM Reply	Hostile? Did I swear or something? Defensive? If my sentences seem shorter and shorter, maybe I'm just trying to make it simple...so that perhaps those who are determined to misunderstand me cannot possibly do so. I am a little tired of the comparison, though, so my normal light-hearted banter may be a tad more pointed...but..after all...alot of these threads would be terribly short if we imposed Godwin on this board. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,889 by rcareaga 4/16/03 6:09:45 PM 4/17/03 2:26:25 PM Reply	Re: Lets state it simply. I am not totally happy with the government we have. I would, however, take this one over any other one in existance today Is this a conclusion you have arrived at after sedulous study of all other extant governments and analysis of their failings and virtues vis-a-vis our own, or do you just, like, kinda know that Ours Is Best, just like they've been telling you since you got your milkteeth? --And speaking of that, since the notion that they've got the Bestest and Most Wunnerful Society in the Whole World is one you'll find in many another land, and since, because there can be only one B&MWS in the WW, the rest are obviously lying or deluded--why, isn't it splendid that you live in the One True B&MWSitWW, God's favorite nation-state hands down, the only place where trusting schoolchildren can be told Ours is Best with a straight face? Hey, I live here, and it's a pretty comfortable gig--I know the language and enough of the customs to get by (actually, now I think of it, I feel a far sharper sense of regional loyalty--to the Pacific Coast, specifically--than I do to the larger geographical and institutional entity of the One True B&MWSitWW)--but just because the country's fitful progress toward authoritarian dystopia throughout my life has been on the desultory side for much of that period doesn't mean I don't wake up and smell the Zyklon-B when a regime that took power by thuggery and fraud starts looking to put that progress on a systematic basis. You keep returning to your rather touching faith in the supposed homeostasis of the system: "The massive violation of civil liberties post Dec 7 were eliminated. Why would we have any reason to believe this any different a moment in our history?" Wrong question, really--most of us wonder what possesses you to imagine that the two moments are significantly similar beyond the single element of a surprise attack on two very different societies. Actually, I'd be well content if, remembering this exchange in a decade's time, I concluded that I'd been mistaken in my concerns. But at this moment in our history I am persuaded that the institutions and traditions in which you place so much faith are far less robust than you suppose, and that the United States of America could very easily be transformed in the blink of an eye, historically speaking (one more rearrangement of a major metropolitan skyline would do the trick, I'd judge, and just because this lot doesn't fire its own Reichstags doesn't mean they wouldn't run with the opportunity), as radically as its old nemesis the USSR--which, as you may remember, looked for most of the postwar period to be a permanent part of the landscape. People have been reaching back to the Nazis by way of comparison not because they believe the Bush junta will slavishly follow the Feuhrer's playbook, but because they serve as one recent example of how a democracy is infected, subverted and overwhelmed by a cabal. That the trappings of the putsch may not be Bavarian, that the spinmeistering is infinitely more sophisticated, is cold comfort to a clear eye. cordially, [edit:typo] "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist." Edited by rcareaga April 17, 2003, 02:26:25 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #96,905 by bepatient 4/16/03 7:35:19 PM Reply	What is it with this crew? I've a Masters in International Business and have lived in over a half dozen and studied vastly more of the governments on this planet. I just know ours is best :-/ I've lived with National ID cards. Police armed with automatic weapons. Free nationalized healthcare (and a deviated septum to show that you do..in fact...get what you pay for) etc... This country is not perfect. Perfect does not exist. There are countries that handle certain aspects of the entire package >better< than we do. But when you put the entire package together, this is the place to be. And I suppose...if Greg's server holds out for the decade...that I would relish the opportunity and freedom to discuss this with you and disagree with you all over again :) Just like I do now. And I would love to be so optimistic about the motives of others in search of a comparison point...I'm just not. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,923 by boxley 4/16/03 10:11:33 PM Reply	well having batted about from souk to shantytown from cribs to mansions on all continents I choose this country. Now if I was in like flynn with the ruling class of certain regimes around I might like them better but for an average Joe with no pull the USofA offers the most freedom I am likely to get, and it is a dam small portion of what I require. I love the deep south, the mountains and Grass Valley in CA. Nevada is sweet and so is Miami during the daylight with heavy shades on and the car doors locked. The Bronx is interesting and Pine Ridge Rez is way cool. Alaska of course is tops but so is Florida in its own way. Love the whole dam thing I guess and have for most of my adult life. Just have to keep howling at the injustice offered by all segments of this society. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Carpe Dieu
Post #97,143 by Ashton 4/17/03 7:14:34 PM Reply	No real estate complaints - we got it really cheap, at first
Post #96,911 by Ashton 4/16/03 8:47:40 PM Reply	Your projection may, of course prove correct. Who could give 'proves' ?? We may indeed cap the agenda of the PFTNAC crowd and send them back to.. wait for the next opportunity to swamp the T-cells with a High Fever. We may accomplish this despite the Me-Me-Me group's virtuosity at remaining oblivious to all But mememe; do so in spite of <half of Registered Voters actually voting (what % of Registerable, then?). Might see the pendulum swing .. just All on Its Own. I guess. I still believe in Wonderfulness, too - but only between or among consenting adults, inevitably both informed and possessing working imaginations via living authentic lives - not edjaKayted for McLives circumscribed by The Mall. I can appreciate your faith in the automatic triumph of Wonderfulness over the pernicious and craven. This is an attitude we see it is right to inculcate in children, especially: it gives a nice referent until they can manufacture their own compass. Alas, I find that I cannot invest that degree of Wishfulness as approximates, say - the PFTNAC membership suddenly deciding that a New Century for The Entire Planet ..has a better ring to it than -??- Mine. All. Mine. I've also heard it said that, comfort is a Drug. But what do they know. Ashton
Post #97,036 by mmoffitt 4/17/03 12:46:48 PM Reply	You said that twice, and I just don't smoke that much crack. People who claim to see that drift have NO IDEA what it is that they are comparing against. YOU know better than people who personally saw and lived through the rise of the Third Reich? Even you can't be that pompous. Unless, you're actually William Kristol. Are you? bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #97,050 by bepatient 4/17/03 1:43:48 PM Reply	Maybe you should start then. While I have not discussed GW's stupid look and asked for a comparison to Hitler's stupid looks with these people, I guarantee that Georg (whose home I lived in for several months) would laugh at the assertion that the US is becoming anything at all like Hitler's Germany. So...maybe gramma was right about the likeness of the stupid looks. I'll stick to the "no idea" statement for everything else. Maybe his view was a little jaundiced though...since his family got a little more than a "stupid look" for not saluting. They just started disappearing. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #97,056 by mmoffitt 4/17/03 2:26:44 PM Reply	Maybe you should learn to read then. From the very first post in this thread: "I watched some news on tv here. But I had to stop. It was the same thing the Nazis were saying. Ja, exactly the same thing. It makes me sick to hear it. I cannot watch American news anymore." Let me explain this to you in single syllabled words: "This is how it starts." And that's not from me, that's from some one who was there. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #97,061 by admin 4/17/03 2:42:03 PM Reply	My German expatriot is better than yours, nyah. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #97,068 by mmoffitt 4/17/03 3:04:18 PM Reply	No, mine's better. Yours worked in the camps. ;-p bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #97,107 by bepatient 4/17/03 4:42:47 PM Reply	Whatever you say, my friend. I've no doubt of what she said. I trust your account of her statements to be accurate. I honestly do. And I'll gladly eat my words when some opposition leaders vanish or Congress burns down. And I know that everyone here tries to say that "that was later...they were "fine" in the beginning. They were not. They captured and maintained power with violence. They then erased the opposition and vilified the jews...and ended up killing quite a few of them. Yes..that part came later...but not much. This is not to say that there are not elements of the "classical" definition of fascism present >everywhere<. David Duke was just in the news. The radical isolationism espoused by Buchanon and the religious right qualifies as borderline fascism. And I also recognize your belief that the war in Iraq was baseless. Thus, the vilification of the Iraqi regime could be viewed by you as fascist. No issue there...difference of opinion...maybe...but your opinion could translate as such. But the National Socialists in Germany are a different breed and I maintain that we are not, nor ever will be comparable. >that is and will continue to be my position<. Had we rounded up EVERY muslim in the US in response to 9/11..and then started a national campaign to blame them for everthing from homelessness to bad economics...hey...we'd be closing in. [link\|http://www.brookes.ac.uk/schools/humanities/staff/FAECRG2.htm\|Fascism] If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #97,120 by mmoffitt 4/17/03 5:39:39 PM Reply	The price is vigilence. I have never, nor will I ever, defend Saddam Hussein or his politics. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that I had. No one was more repulsed when the Reagan/Bush administration blocked efforts at sanctions for the gassing of Kurds, our sales of weapons to the regime (also under Daddy's watch), Rumsfeld's photo-op's with Saddam, Gillespie's "green light" and perhaps worst of all, our own Undersecretary of State telling Saddam that he was "the leading force for moderation in the region" and that we wanted closer ties to him. I'm sure back then, like all good Republicans (if you were old enough) you were defending Saddam Hussein. No, we didn't round up "all muslims". But surely you remember the "rounding up of Muslim students" to "just ask them some questions" on the heals of 9/11. Others have pointed out similarities to fascist policies in this thread (Ashton's contribution (as usual) is perhaps the best) to our propaganda efforts, intolerance of dissent, equation of questioning to anti-Americanism, etc. My position is that it may well be argued that the difference between us today and Germany in 1938 is one of degrees only. If we wish to maintain some resemblence to what is outlined in our own Constitution (that is, what is left of it), we cannot afford to "just trust that everything will be/is okay." No, we are not Nazis, ..... yet. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #97,137 by Ashton 4/17/03 6:53:53 PM Reply	Nobody ever expects___THE SPANISH INQUISITION__[!]
Post #96,845 by Arkadiy 4/16/03 1:01:39 PM Reply	We sit in a boat in New York harbor. The current starts to push the boat apprximately due South, very slowly. I turn to you and ask: "You don't see any drift towards Brasil?" -- It made Ketchup! Sweet Ketchup! Put it on a hot dog, put it on a burger, Put it on your sister and she'll holler blody murder! Sweet Ketchup. --Tom Paxton.
Post #96,849 by Silverlock 4/16/03 1:20:54 PM Reply	Cute Meaningless, but cute. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #96,850 by Arkadiy 4/16/03 1:23:39 PM Reply	Could you pick a more realistic destination, then? -- It made Ketchup! Sweet Ketchup! Put it on a hot dog, put it on a burger, Put it on your sister and she'll holler blody murder! Sweet Ketchup. --Tom Paxton.

Welcome to IWETHEY!