Post #9,327
9/15/01 9:38:18 PM
9/17/01 8:02:58 AM
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A request for tolerance - final
This is hopefully a fairly advanced draft that I am looking for feedback on, which I hope will become a chain letter. As people comment I am making changes, hence most existing suggested changes will no longer apply.
I know it could still be made better, but at some point I have to stop editing. If nobody points out anything fairly shortly, I will start trying to circulate it. So I am calling it done.
A Request For Tolerance
As we all know, the United States is in a war. In all wars we need many kinds of skills, and this one is no different. So far we have needed fire fighters, doctors, blood donors and police investigators. We will shortly have many more needs.
And many with those skills will come from our own Arab American community. Obviously they can serve in all of the ways that any American can serve. But only they can infiltrate terrorist cells. Many of them can provide translation services for our intelligence agencies. Some can provide specialized training and background for us.
For the most part this is a community of loyal citizens, thankful for the opportunities that all Americans share. The actions of a few notwithstanding, these Americans believe in our country and, like the rest of us, want nothing more than to help in any way they can. Yes, many of them may follow Islam. But Osama Bin Laden's terrorists no more represent them than Timothy McVeigh represents Christianity. Let us not repeat mistakes past and try to make enemies out of loyal friends.
Yet racists in our midst are doing just that. Wishing to do something against Arabic enemies, they attack our Arabic friends. This undermines both what we stand for as a nation, and our nation's ability to respond effectively to the current threat. America's strength and promise lies in providing a common home and purpose to people whose ancestors were divided. We should not let terrorists take this from us along with so much else.
This, my friends and fellow Americans, is not the time for our house to be divided by racism, bigotry and hate. Our diverse nation, welcoming all, is the treasure we must preserve. So when next you see someone of another race, please smile. Ask them who they are and where they are from. Welcome them as fellow dreamers of our American dream. And if you see anyone harming our nation by attacking people we need in days to come, do not be passive. Instead speak up and show why these States are proudly named United.
And please pass on this message and others like to to friends and family to remind them what we stand for and value.
Cheers, Ben
Edited by ben_tilly
Sept. 15, 2001, 10:13:50 PM EDT
Edited by ben_tilly
Sept. 15, 2001, 10:26:33 PM EDT
Edited by ben_tilly
Sept. 16, 2001, 12:21:35 AM EDT
Edited by ben_tilly
Sept. 16, 2001, 12:31:34 AM EDT
Edited by ben_tilly
Sept. 16, 2001, 12:40:03 AM EDT
Edited by ben_tilly
Sept. 16, 2001, 01:40:19 PM EDT
Edited by ben_tilly
Sept. 16, 2001, 07:28:46 PM EDT
Edited by ben_tilly
Sept. 17, 2001, 08:02:58 AM EDT
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Post #9,328
9/15/01 10:07:10 PM
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Words . .
. . like "moron" and "hate monger" will badly weaken this message in the eyes of many.
"Too stupid", for instance could be replaced by "too uneducated". It would be fairly easy to demonstrate that some "racist hate mongers" are far from stupid, but they are probably uneducated. Calling them "too stupid" is probably not likely to convert many uneducated xenophobics either.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #9,335
9/15/01 11:42:10 PM
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Words? C'mon.
Calling them "too stupid" is probably not likely to convert many uneducated xenophobics either. The kind of people who would shoot out windows in a Dallas mosque aren't likely to be swayed by words. On the other hand, those who might blatter "Go back to your homeland" to someone of Arabian looks might think a couple of timies.
Rest in peace, Jeremy, Mark, and whoever else who helped overpower the hijackers on Flight 93.
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Post #9,463
9/17/01 1:35:25 PM
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He's preaching to the choir, don'cha know.
You know, these folks: [link|http://slate.msn.com/features/PCW/mission.htm|http://slate.msn.co.../mission.htm]
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,474
9/17/01 2:07:31 PM
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WTF is your problem?
I don't know why you dislike me. But I can't remember the last time you were willing to give me the benefit of the doubt or the time of day. And I can think of cases dating right back to when we were still on IWE where you went out of your way to attack me.
Why?
And is there a chance you will grow up some day, or is your hostility something I have to accept for as long as I am around here?
Puzzled, Ben
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Post #9,492
9/17/01 3:30:39 PM
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What is your point?
That young children mock everything that puzzles them, so as not to feel quite so ignorant - as they know they are?
Yours isn't the sharp tongue of the serpent - just the random doggerel of broken glass on the floor. Grow up, sonny.
Ashton
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Post #9,588
9/18/01 7:33:51 AM
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Grow up.
-- Peter Shill For Hire
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Post #9,603
9/18/01 9:13:42 AM
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Oh dear, now I've gone and offended the choir.
Oh, well.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,336
9/16/01 12:07:21 AM
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change hateful racists to cowards hiding behind the skirts
of patriotism. A true american would not let women in headscarfs and children be stoned and derided by the fearful. He/she would move to assist and desist. Feel the anger, feel the need join up. Although if you are carrying a sign of bin laden and chanting death to america yer on yer own. thanx, bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
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Post #9,342
9/16/01 12:49:43 AM
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I dont think that it is just racists (their there)
but well meaning frustrated ill informed. Same folk cant tell the difference between a catholic and an IRA gunman because they have no experience of either. Suggest that Community Patrols which we use in the suberbs to prevent senceless crimes be formed to protect the Mosques and meeting houses of Muslim Americans. OT unless ya have clan and blood to the 120 tribes in Afganistan ya aint gonna pass. Those folks are seriously different. Picture you standard American Mountain Man of the 1830's (American White Tribe of Indians) cross that with a beleif that the more enemies you have when you die the more important you are and you get yer average tribal member add modern hitech weapons (they make em in Peshawar Pakistan) and it will be very serious fighters we must send against them. If a balls to the wall American Team got into the country and declared it personal (my brother was killed by that csucker bin laden) they might have a chance to pull it off. Bombing will be a waste of time.
thanx, bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
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Post #9,348
9/16/01 3:22:45 AM
9/16/01 3:52:06 AM
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One suggestion.
I love it, Ben. When you consider it complete, I'd be honored to share it amongst the folk I know.
I would suggest a small change:
's/not the time for racsim/not the time for racsim, bigotry, or hate/'
To me, carries a bit more weight. I feel that what you're trying to convey is beyond racism, as sickening as that is in and of itself.
Other words to consider:
Prejudice, stereotypes, discrimination.
Thanks
----- Steve
Edited by Steve Lowe
Sept. 16, 2001, 03:52:06 AM EDT
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Post #9,354
9/16/01 9:14:01 AM
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Give reasoning from the general to the particular its due.
I'm well aware they're not all the same. But most ethnic stereotypes have basis in fact. They have to come from somehwere, after all. And you shouldn't have to think long and hard to see why this is so. An ethnicity is defined by attitudes and traditions that most of its members have in common, which the parents instill in their children, and which are not common to humanity as a whole. If these things didn't exist, ethnicity wouldn't exist.
Most of these distinguishing characterists are benign. Some even virtuous, as Thomas Cahill has pointed out. But the laws of probability dicate that some will be downright nasty. Persons from certain parts of the world are statistically much more likely to kill thousands of American civilians in a suicide attack than are people from the general world population. It's not politically correct to say so, and yes I know it's very rude to point it out. But it's true, and it's relevant, and somebody's got to say it. Facing unpopular facts such as this are very literally a matter of life and death for us now.
I don't believe that ethnic origin is fate. Free will exists, and at the individual level, sometimes conscience and just plain sense overrride cultural indoctrination. But culture is very much part of an ethnocally defined group of people, in a statistical sense. We ignore it at our peril.
It's strictly a question of burden of proof. Those foreign nationals from the Arab/Muslim world who are civilized, and who wish not to live here under a cloud if suspicion, need to make it expressly clear that they condemn the terrorists. They should hang sings outside their homes and their mosques reading, "we condemn terrorism in all its forms, and are saddened at what was done." If I were in their place, I'd do the same, and nor grumble about it. And if they intend to become American citizens at some point, adding an American flag would be a nice touch. That's not too much to ask, under the circumstances. And please, no cant about how nobody should have to do that in a free and decent and civilized country. Whatever country we're in, this is still planet Earth.
Those who are already nationalized American citizens can just display the American flag prominently. That should settle all questions.
Of course this cuts both ways. If you're a very pale skinned man with a perpetually sunburned neck and a pickup truck with a gun rack, it wouldn't hurt to add a bumper sticker reading "I oppose the the use of weapons of mass destruction against civilians, no matter the provocation." I might just get one of those made up for myself.
By the way, I wouldn't mind seeing all ethnic distinctions obliterated, or at the very least drastically watered down. To hell with multiculturalism. Diversity is getting us slaughtered here. Let's just take the best features from each culture, and make them universal. Keep the rule of law, representative democracy, human rights and science from Western civilization. Chinese herbal medicine is worth having, too. Algebra and the decimal system from the Arab world. Russian music and literature. But throw out all the nasty harmful bits like clitorectomy, suttee, ritual alchohol abuse, the US public school system, amoral familism and suicide terrorism. Leave alone the harmless picturesque stuff like Cantonese funeral rites and Halloween and the British monarchy and carboard shamrocks and Anime. Stuff you wouldn't mind your kids being exposed to in grade school. Diversity as diversion is no problem.
Now bring on the flames! I know you want to.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,357
9/16/01 9:33:57 AM
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Re: Give reasoning from the general to the particular its du
I don't believe that ethnic origin is fate. Free will exists, and at the individual level, sometimes conscience and just plain sense overrride cultural indoctrination. But culture is very much part of an ethnocally defined group of people, in a statistical sense. I do disagree and condemn the uneducated or downright racist attacks against Arab-Americans. However, they need to understand that all the people identified as being part of the attack have been Arabic, and it is hard to believe these scum did not associate with fellow Arabian people in the United States while they prepared their attack. Fellow Arab-Americans, I say again I condemn the sporadic harrassment and vandalism purpetrated against you. (To date, I have not heard of any incidents of actual physical harm, but it may very well come.) However, you can do better than just complaining about harrassment; help us root these scum out. I don't ask you to be weasel snitches on your fellow citizens for vague feelings that something might be wrong, but if you know something, please come forward.
Rest in peace, Jeremy, Mark, and whoever else who helped overpower the hijackers on Flight 93.
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Post #9,369
9/16/01 2:05:07 PM
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For what it's worth...
Pakistan is making very sincere-sounding noises about being united with decent peoples against terrorism. This can't hurt, and it's bound to help civilized people of all persuasions.
I'll make a couple of amendments to my comments above:
1. If you're a Pakistani national, displaying a pakistani flag will do just fine.
2. It's getting damn hard to find American flags. I think people will be understanding if you haven't got one. At least I hope so, `coz I haven't got one.
I was never the sort to plaster my vehicle with stickers. My positions on things have always been too nuanced and unconventional to be represented on bumper stickers, even custom made ones. And having come of age during Vietnam and Watergate, I've found flag-waving to be only a little less crude than flag burning.
But with recent events, suddenly the Red White and Blue have acquired a crystalline unambiguity they haven't had in nearly forty years. The one time in my life I want to wave a flag and I can't get one, by jingo!
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,367
9/16/01 12:38:47 PM
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Get over your bad self
and do something productive.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
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Post #9,370
9/16/01 2:06:20 PM
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I'm open to suggestions.
Got anything specific in mind?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,374
9/16/01 2:53:27 PM
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I give it exactly its due
And its due is that most people I have known who are willing to excuse their racist crap by saying they are reasoning from the general to the particular are assholes I would have preferred not to have met.
For the record I have known many people in the US and Canada of Arabic descent. Many I have counted as friends. My friends have ranged from Baha'is exiled by the Iran revolution to Afghan royalty exiled by the Soviet invasion. I shared an office in graduate school with a Pakistani named Naveed. We had long conversations several years ago about why the terrorists use of religion was a perversion of the principles of Islam. He taught me by example how to play ping-pong, and last I heard he had married a woman from Texas and was pursuing the American dream in Atlanta. Going the other way, my best friend in my previous job married an Uzbeki. I don't know how to spell her name, but it is pronounced, "Shaknos". I don't think there are many happier couples than me and my wife, but they just might be one of them.
Now there are clearly other kinds of Arabs. The buildings I used to see every day which fell before our eyes demonstrates that. But the family of the man who we believe is behind that, Osama bin Laden, long ago threw him out of their family and disowned him. And the taxi driver whose cab I rode in as the buildings burned was Arabic. Was he on the side of the terrorists? Not that I saw! He looked both terribly sad and very scared.
Throughout America today the question is who could do something like this? Who could hate a people so much that they would attack innocent civilians out of a blue sky and rejoice in the death and destruction?
My answer to that is simple. Most of the Arabs I have personally known, would not. However in every country, in every people, there are some who would. And the ones from our country who would are the same people who think that putting firebombs through American mosques is a good idea.
Now you say that Arabs should show support for being American to avoid hatred. I agree that showing support is a good idea right now for all Americans. However today Arabic Americans are caught in a catch-22 situation. If they don't show support they are hated by people who claim they are not part of our society. If they do show support they are hated by people who claim they are mocking America and American deaths. The truth is that many today just want to hate an Arab, and don't care how little sense it makes.
It is bigots like that who claim to love their country even as they set out and destroy everything that this country stands for. There are many Arabs I have been proud to name as friends. The same does not go for the people who are harrassing fellow Americans in the name of America.
Ben
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Post #9,448
9/17/01 12:39:24 PM
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About that "Catch-22"
I feel their pain. I've been in situations like that. Here's what I've learned: if you're going to be damned, see to it that your conscience is not among the damners. If you're going to be hated either way, you may as well be on the side of right.
Another thing I've found: the people who will hate you if you're right are many and vociferous, but the people who respect you for being right are the ones that matter most. They tend to win in the end, despite being outnumbered, for the simple reason that they're smarter. But it takes a while.
And please, no knee-jerking about racist crap and assholes. Especially not after preaching about unconditional tolerance. If you can't practise what you preach (and by the way, no one can practise what you preach) then preach something more workable.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,468
9/17/01 1:53:27 PM
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I think you are reading in something I didn't say
What about what I "preached" do you think people (including me) find hard to practice?
I strongly suspect that you are reading me and projecting a caricature of what you think PC people are like onto me. If so then you have certainly not read what I have written on IWETHEY in the past about racism, stereotyping, when it makes sense, when it doesn't, and what I see as the proper role of government in the same. My full feelings on the topic are rather too complex to fit in any convenient labels that I have seen.
But that doesn't change the fact that right now I despise the people who are taking their outrage over last Tuesday out on fellow Americans.
Ben
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Post #9,475
9/17/01 2:15:44 PM
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Here's an idea.
Detail your algorithm for deciding what to tolerate and what not to tolerate. Provide comments explaining the rationale behind each decision fork.
Here's mine:
main function: I tolerate that which is not dangerous. I give zero tolerance to that which is dangerous. If the danger value of something is indeterminate, I flag it for careful observation.
subroutine: determine whether something is dangerous. Take the sum total of personal experience, call it P. Take the sum total of what I can find in history books. Call it H. Take the sum total of prevailing conventional wisdom. Call it PCW. Take the sum total of prevailing wisdom among those who reject conventional wisdom. Call it SCW, for Second-tier Conventional Wisdom. Take the opinios of the Politically Correct. Call it PC.
Into each of these, feed the question: is X dangerous? Take a weighted average of the results, thusly:
P has a weighting of 55 H has a weighting of 40 PCW has a weighting of 3 SCW has a weighting of 2 PC has a weighting of 0
I arrived at the weightings above thusly: that which is verifiable gets higher marks that that which is harder to verify. That which has high predicitive success outweighs that which does not. By these criteria, adjust the weightings until an optimal set of values emerges.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,486
9/17/01 3:03:04 PM
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I am for an effective understanding
History indicates that simple black and white pictures tend to have their own dangers. And often you need to balance out opposing dangers. Merely saying, "This is my threat, what can I do against it?" without taking into account more subtle trade-offs has in the past consistently been the cause of new nasty threats.
So I aim for the most effective understanding I can get, with a feedback cycle limited only by the effort taken inputing and analyzing data, and with my active seeking shaped by my personal opinion of how important different things are to look for. (Even when I am not actively seeking information on something, I am passively open to new information if I should stumble on it.)
I attempt to modulate my own behaviour according to what is likely to be most effective in reaching my personal goals of the moment.
For instance, based on having known quite a few Arabs living in the US and Canada, my most effective understanding is that these people generally came here for a reason, and a good portion have nothing to go back to. And I stand by my claim that these people are, even with the effort needed to search for terrorist cells, a net benefit for our country.
Just a random example that came up last night in conversation with my wife. What would you do with a woman born in Iran by the name of Shirley Basiri? (I don't know the spelling of the last name, sorry.) Make up your mind. Would you want to evict her? Well if so then you have just chosen to evict a Jew whose family fled the Iranian revolution. She is also a top medical student at one of the top 10 medical schools in the US. Sounds to me like someone I would want to keep around...
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Post #9,507
9/17/01 4:27:31 PM
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Fair enough, but...
taken at face value, this is all a far cry from squishy sermonizing on tolerance. As well as from categorically dismissing all non-squishies as "racist assholes."
I'm all for a scientific approach to things. In fact I'm quite hardheaded about it. It's the one thing from my period of atheism that I deem of any value. But one must be willing to follow where it leads. No having it both ways.
When "open-minded" is just a word you bandy about, you're no longer open-minded.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,519
9/17/01 5:42:30 PM
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Read the "squishy sermonizing" again, please
You might find it rather less squishy than you think. Sure, it talks about ideals. That is largely because people who think themselves moved by ideals of the human spirit are more likely to react generously than people who are not.
As for racist assholes, well do you think we should have kind words for the people firebombing mosques and threatening Arab Americans?
But what is the truth of it for me? Well the truth is that any perceptive person mistaken notion that all cultures are to be treated equally is unlikely to survive any real friendship with someone of a different culture. Likewise any silly notion that all people are treated equally in the US is unlikely to survive any friendship with someone of a different race. I am a person who attempts to be somewhat perceptive, and I have definitely named as friends over the years people of different races and cultures. So it should come as no surprise that I am aware of how much the US falls short of its ideals, and I don't have particularly rose-colored glasses.
But still I believe that multi-culturalism in the US is a good thing, and is worth supporting.
More precisely I believe that this is a nation that draws great strength from its immigrants. That tradition is not just (in some vague sense) the right thing to do, but is good for the country in very direct ways. Of course not all imigrants are good for us. But by and large, they work out very much to our benefit.
Think about this. Your average immigrant has generally had to come several thousand miles, has settled in a country that speaks a foreign language, and is trying to set down roots. Very often they have managed to do this while coming from a place where your average person is dirt poor and conditions are pretty desperate. Overall there is a decent correlation between being able to do that and being motivated, intelligent, and reasonably good with money. On the whole those are traits that are pretty good to have in your populace...
Now I won't say that immigrants are an unmitigated good, or that all of them are wonderful people. I am not stupid and I don't ask you to be either. But over the years studies have consistently found that on the whole immigrants put more into our economy than they take out. The outcry goes, "They are taking American jobs!" Well, not really. At first they take jobs that nobody wants. After they can take real jobs, well put a bunch of good workers in your economy, and you improve productivity. Improve productivity, and you wind up creating jobs and raising the standard of living. Jobs are not a fixed resource, rather they are a dynamic resource. Again and again immigrants wind up creating more jobs than they take. (Besides which, their food tastes good...)
Now it may not be pretty good for the rest of the world, but many of the best and the brightest choose to come here. Seems to me that this is a pretty good thing for us, and it is something that the US should want to encourage...
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Post #9,538
9/17/01 7:25:34 PM
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Immigrants as a self-selecting group.
Your argument about immigrants and their traits is not utterly without validity. In fact, it's pretty good as far as it goes. However, I'm not sure you grasp all its implications. Some points:
1. If the value of immigration to the US is contingent on its difficulty, what happens if we don't make it difficult enough? Where's the quality control then? What you have provided is an argument for keeping immigration difficult.
1a. With the advances of transportation technology over the centuries, immigration is getting progressively less difficult. It may not be a coincidence that the most successful enthnicities in this country are mostly the least recent (the Chinese are a notable, but only partial, exception.)
1b. Already there are immigrants who've been here for thirty years and never bothered to learn English. They're in dead end jobs, or even on welfare. That's not a good trend.
2. It may well be difficult for the poor to get in, depending on where they start from. But it's all too easy for those funded by an evil Saudi billionaire to get in. This is precisely the opposite of what we want.
3. It's not at all obvious how to keep out the evil geniuses and their henchmen. Even sealing our borders wouldn't work. They'd just come ashore at night by submarine.
4. Since we can't realistically hope to keep them out, it follows that we must watch carefully for them once they're here. That means looking at foreigners with suspicion, based on their ethnicity. It's the Red Scare all over again, but without the poodle skirts and bouyant economy this time. It's unfair to the innocent immigrants, but what's to do?
4a. Besides, it's always been unfair for the immigrants. They have a hard time of it. That's part of what keeps out the riffraff, according to your own argument.
5. The only long term solution I can see is to destroy their power base. Bin Laden and his deep pockets have got to go, and in such a spectacular way as to deter any others with his inclinations.
6. In the meantime, it's live in fear. It sucks, but it's better than getting blown up.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,388
9/16/01 5:18:49 PM
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nit
>> Persons from certain parts of the world are statistically much more likely to kill thousands of American civilians in a suicide attack than are people from the general world population. <<
If you factored in the likes of Tim McVey, I don't think that would ring true.
________________ oop.ismad.com
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Post #9,449
9/17/01 12:43:21 PM
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Counter-nits.
1. That wasn't a suicide attack. 2. It wouldn't be enough to tip the balance in any case.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,360
9/16/01 10:07:57 AM
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two minor suggestions
Add in Usama's first name below and remove his name in the 2nd paragraph. ALL terrorists need to be eliminated, not just UBL.
"But they no more agree with [Usama] bin Laden's terrorists than most American Christians agree with Timothy McVeigh. Let us not repeat mistakes past and try to make enemies out of loyal friends.
Yet racists in our midst are doing just that. Wishing to do something against Arabic enemies, they attack our Arabic friends. This undermines both what we stand for as a nation, and our nation's ability to respond effectively to the current threat. America's strength and promise is in providing a common home and purpose to people whose ancestors were divided. We should not let [bin Laden's] -(remove) terrorists take this from us along with so much else."
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Post #9,363
9/16/01 10:33:45 AM
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Thanks for caring!
It's responses like this that give me faith in humanity, especially after such an inhuman terrorist attack.
As your letter states, this is a battle of good people against evil people, not one religion versus another, not one race or nationality against another.
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Post #9,383
9/16/01 4:46:30 PM
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What I might say in a similar situation.
In 1776, a group of slaveowning men advanced the notion, without irony, that "All men are created equal."
From our origins as a very divided, very unequal country, we have advanced considerably. These advances were often a direct result of the barbarism, slaughter, bloodshed, and heroism of war.
In the Civil War, both sides felt that blacks were incapable of being soldiers. They were proven wrong by example, with stunning examples of bravery and solderiering.
In World War II, it was felt that all Japanese in the country would only have loyalty to "their" Emperor, and so they were locked up in internment camps. Except for the young men, who were drafted, of course. And who then went on to amass a stunning record with their battlefield performance and loyalty to the United States. And its certainly well known that the US Japanese were as loyal to the US as any other distinct group.
Also during Word War II, it was felt that blacks now were incapable of flying airplanes, particularly high-speed, demanding fighters. The well-known record of the "Tuskeegee Airmen" should be ample rebuttal.
Largely as a result of such heros, the Armed Forces were integrated shortly after the war.
In the last 30 years, we have found a surging tide of Islamic Fundamentalism, spread by the technology and culture that apparently, it abhors. The terrors used by these driven people are well known.
On April 19th, 1995, the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, in Oklahoma City disappeared in a blast and shock wave.
The initial reaction was that it "must have been" Arab terrorism. As we now know, it was the work of a US citizen of European extraction, with ties to fundamentalist Christian groups. The initial hatred and reaction toward people appearing to be Arabic was incorrect.
Now, with this recent tragedy, the same prejudices/presumtions are resurrected. Arabs are no more from the same mold than "Europeans" or "Christians" There are as many factions of Islam as there are of Christianity, and lest we forget the home-grown terrorists and fundamentalist fanatics.
There is not a difference between Islamic mullahs and well-known Christian commentators in this country pronouncing the "reason" for the bombing was the "lack of God" in this country.
And yet further is the diversity of religions in the region - people of the same skin tone who have histories of warring over the exact religious issue. Stories are spreading about Sikh's being attacked. Sikh's and Muslims have been warring before the United States was founded.
The best way to deal with these Islamic fundamentalist is to deny them what they want - changing our way of life for the worse.
The best way to win this "war", is to look past skin tone and religion even more than we have in the past, to the person beyond.
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Post #9,387
9/16/01 5:17:36 PM
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Excellent.
I would add only an expansion of a point you have not missed:
Begin noticing the commonalities of 'Fundamentalists' of all stripes.
Whether here or abroad, whatever ethnicity - their common goal is the imposition upon all others, of their narrow man-made interpretation of ancient man-written 'Scriptures'. These will place their ego's interpretations of these retranslated and interpreted words - above all concepts *of all humanity*, for each 'Believes' He is acting for God. This while.. piously preaching, the sanctity of human life. You can't have Both!
In this last is the baldfaced evidence that even language itself is "fair game", once one has achieved fanatic-levels of 'theological' Certainty.
These are the avowed enemies of any concept of an 'open society' and of, the tolerance of diverse opinions essential to such a society. They are certainly my philosophical 'enemy'; only today it is much clearer why these are also enemies in the pragmatic daily sense: that of mere physical survival as and within an open society.
Ashton
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Post #9,442
9/17/01 12:17:50 PM
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I thought about including some of those points...
The reason that I didn't in the end is that I couldn't see how to make it fit the overall message I wanted in the space that I had. The history is all true, and all important. But if I said everything that I wanted to say, I would wind up writing a large book...
Ben
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Post #9,410
9/16/01 9:59:09 PM
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good to go, still dont like racist but (shrug)
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
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Post #9,443
9/17/01 12:21:03 PM
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It is a question of audience
I want to have a chance of communicating to the assholes who are committing these racist acts. What that means is trying to appeal to values they have in words that they can understand in a way that has a chance of getting through. This unfortunately restricts my ability to spend too long expressing all of my feelings about them...
Cheers, Ben
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Post #9,558
9/17/01 10:22:02 PM
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well the ahole see's the word racist and
goes this isnt directed to me and stops reading :) thanx, bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
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Post #9,560
9/17/01 10:31:28 PM
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Calling them racist is counterproductive.
They wear the badge "racist" with pride.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #9,606
9/18/01 9:22:00 AM
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A question of audience indeed.
Calling someone an asshole is no way to communicate with him. I call peopl e assholes from time to time, but never for that purpose. The only time I ever call someone an asshole is to get on the record precisely and unequivocably where I stand, and only after I've given up communication with the asshole as a hopeless cause. It's purely for the benefit of onlookers. No other way of using such an epithet can serve any constructive purpose.
Think about it. Calling someone an asshole is like saying to someone "you're just not listening." In fact, it emcompasses that very idea. Now what's the point of telling somebody he's not listening, since you know he's not listening to you when you tell him? What's the point of telling him anything, per se?
Bottom line: your statement of intent doesn't make sense.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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