Post #81,852
2/15/03 12:08:40 AM
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The ones who signed the Declaration of Independence.....
...were signing their death warrant.
And they knew it.
Then they went and fought for their Freedom against one of the mightiest nations on Earth.
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Post #81,867
2/15/03 12:58:31 AM
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Yet we are sure: no Iraqi harbours such feelings.
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Post #81,888
2/15/03 6:08:15 AM
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Noble sentiments and deep values may be lost
Listen to the ones among us who so freely want to condemn others to death just for being in the way of the invading US army.
'Kill them if they get in the way, even if just doing their duty or are in the wrong place at the wrong time as we come through'.
Lets just think about some tough issues, It doesn't require any hard thinking to answer these questions ...
1) Is the US Invasion of Iraq sanctioned by many countries in the world community ?
2) Is it justifiable to invade another country who has not attacked yours or declared war or stated any intent to do so, merely based on an opinion that they 'might' (as in Poland 1939) ?
3) Is the invasion of Iraq gong to result in 100s to 1000s of civilian deaths ?
6) What happened to Osama Bin Laden & the war on Al-Qaeda ?
7) Will invading Iraq & killing many of its citizens & soldiers result in more peace and security for America ?
5) When reading about this deed in 20 years time how will history judge the invasion - as a heroic American deed in support of world peace or an vulgar ugly blot on world and American history ?
Not too hard to answer surely
Doug Marker
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Post #81,901
2/15/03 10:02:22 AM
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I will try to take those questions in the number presented
1) Is the US Invasion of Iraq sanctioned by many countries in the world community ?
there are a lot of countries that support the Invasion from our traditional allies and new ones as well as a cross section of folks. France has large financial motives for the Status Quo, Germany and Belgium are supporting France at the moment and China is slow and cautious as usual. The letter signed by 10 Nations of the EU supported an Invation should not to be brushed away lightly by France or anyone else.
2) Is it justifiable to invade another country who has not attacked yours or declared war or stated any intent to do so, merely based on an opinion that they 'might' (as in Poland 1939) ?
In 1991 we were in a state of war with that country, we have no peace treaty, the original war was in defence of an Ally of ours, no treaty has been signed, this is a continuation of the original action. The original action caused a tremendous amount of dislike and distrust by the Iraqi's towards the Allies and the US in particular. This regime in Iraq would be a threat and should be removed.
3) Is the invasion of Iraq gong to result in 100s to 1000s of civilian deaths ?
absolutely, anyone who claims otherwise is a fool. No one yet has designed a way for a war to be fought without death. Its a byproduct.
6) What happened to Osama Bin Laden & the war on Al-Qaeda ?
Nothing, different issue that is being worked by the same people that were working on it 9/12
7) Will invading Iraq & killing many of its citizens & soldiers result in more peace and security for America ?
Immediately after Iraq is secured there will be a short period of relative quiet in America from that quarter. After any large action there is a pause by all parties to see how things shake out. I dont see Sadam loyalists reforming for staging attacks in America Al Quida style, unless they already were members.
5) When reading about this deed in 20 years time how will history judge the invasion - as a heroic American deed in support of world peace or an vulgar ugly blot on world and American history ? It will either be viewed as a success and a warning for change in the arab world or will meltdown completely. See articles I have posted on the state of the Arab League, explains it very well. Right now the ME and west asia is in an explosive state, this action will either defuse the tension, show that America can be a good friend to the neighbors or will set off the explosion, only time will tell.
Doing nothing guaranties the explosion, Invading Iraq and moving for change only guaranties a chance to not explode.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
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"France," he noted, "has neither winter nor summer, nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks, it is a fine country."
Mark Twain
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Post #81,918
2/15/03 12:21:47 PM
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Now let's look at that again.
#1. "The letter signed by 10 Nations of the EU supported an Invation should not to be brushed away lightly by France or anyone else."
Again, the US can bribe the leaders to support the war.
#2. "In 1991 we were in a state of war with that country, we have no peace treaty, the original war was in defence of an Ally of ours, no treaty has been signed, this is a continuation of the original action."
After TWELVE YEARS? I guess this is one of the reasons that Powell was greeted with silence at the UN.
No, can't argue with that. Of course, it does sound REMARKABLY like the tribal conflicts that exist over there right now. Tribe A killed someone in Tribe B 500 years ago and now Tribe B has to avenge the death by killing someone in Tribe A which leads to people in Tribe A avenging the new death by killing someone in Tribe B.
Is it any wonder why, with that type of "reasoning" that the civilized nations in the UN were silent?
#3. "absolutely, anyone who claims otherwise is a fool. No one yet has designed a way for a war to be fought without death. Its a byproduct."
No, death and destruction are the PRODUCT. They are the GOAL. The army is trained to kill people and break things. The equipment the army uses is designed to kill people and break things.
#6. "Nothing, different issue that is being worked by the same people that were working on it 9/12"
Right, "nothing" happened to them.
Wrong, this is not a "different issue". The ORIGINAL selling point of this war was that Iraq had ties to al Queda.
Then, Iraq had (would have in 6 months) nukes..... that could be used in terrorist strikes against the US.
Then, Iraq had chem/bio that could be used in terrorist strikes against the US.
Then, Iraq had chem/bio that could be used in terrorist strikes against its neighbors.
Then, Iraq has rockets with a greater range than allowed.
Well, maybe, Iraq has drones that could be used in terrorist strikes against the US.
And so on.
#7. "Immediately after Iraq is secured there will be a short period of relative quiet in America from that quarter."
But the ORIGINAL question was: "Will invading Iraq & killing many of its citizens & soldiers result in more peace and security for America ?"
Prior to the attack on the WTC, there was "relative quiet in America".
"I dont see Sadam loyalists reforming for staging attacks in America Al Quida style, unless they already were members."
Again, I will refer you to the ORIGINAL QUESTION.
"Will invading Iraq & killing many of its citizens & soldiers result in more peace and security for America ?"
I don't see any specifics about WHO will be attacking US citizens/buildings. Yet you felt compelled to state that Saddam supporters would NOT be doing so.
But our invasion of Iraq would be the "proof" that the US wants to destroy Islam that will convert many non-fanatics to fanaticism.
Those will be the ones targeting US positions abroad.
The reason they will be abroad is that the US will clamp down on all mid-east travel after the first few happen.
#5. "Doing nothing guaranties the explosion, Invading Iraq and moving for change only guaranties a chance to not explode."
But it is possible to do SOMETHING that is NOT an invasion.
Such as getting the UN inspectors into Iraq to make sure that Saddam does NOT posses/use such weapons. There, the mid-east is a bit "safer".
Such as NOT selling weapons to every tin pot dictator with the oil bux to buy them. If we MUST sell weapons, sell only DEFENSIVE weapons like anti-aircraft batteries, claymores, etc.
And so forth.
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Post #81,920
2/15/03 12:25:19 PM
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Yes...lets do.
Again, the US can bribe the leaders to support the war. Start by providing evidence of this...then we'll continue with the rest. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #81,928
2/15/03 1:46:00 PM
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No evidence required
The complete lack of evidence is proof of a coverup. Ergo, proof that the dastardly deed occurred. Just like the 'October Surprise'.
<obBeatlesQuote>
GOT A GOOD REASON
FOR TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT,
GOT A GOOD REASON
FOR TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT, NOW.
</obBeatlesQuote>
[link|http://beatle-city.merseyworld.com/lyrics/lyrics/dayt-single.htm|Opening lyrics to Day Tripper]
Brian Bronson
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Post #81,931
2/15/03 1:57:32 PM
2/15/03 2:00:08 PM
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Of course.
But the requirement of proof seems to be placed by this camp quite often...
and everyone else is lying to support their cause...
Looks like that shoe is starting to fit.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
Edited by bepatient
Feb. 15, 2003, 02:00:08 PM EST
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Post #81,940
2/15/03 3:37:07 PM
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:-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
"France," he noted, "has neither winter nor summer, nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks, it is a fine country."
Mark Twain
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Post #81,957
2/15/03 7:19:33 PM
2/15/03 9:29:57 PM
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How many times do we have to explain
#1: Posted to BePatient - - expecting a response (Box - pls join in *after* BePatient has responded)
Australia has been bought - we there know it & know what the payment is. Howard has no mandate from the people of Australia to invade without UN endorsement there is *no* Australian here who will refutue this.
Australia has been offered an Open TRade Agreement that it urgently needs to maintain economic security & counter the effects of the current devastating drought.
Turkey's people also are completely opposed to going to war with Iraq but Turkey has been offered the right to occupy northern Iraq plus, US will drop est 5 billion in outstanding loans as well as offer guarantees for new 'loans'.
Britain's people are dominantly opposed to an invasion. Even those who support it say they only support Blair if he has UN support. But UK has oil interests in the region & Blair as an incentive to bypass his own people (as will Bush if needed). Iraq & Kuwait were British 'domains' during the M.E. carve up after WW1. (history history history).
*************
Just think very seriously for a moment - how did Hitler get a suspicious and hostile Russia to support invading Poland in 1939 ??? or do you not know your history ??? (understandable if you didn't study it or major in modern history - ((I did)). (A clue research Katyn forest massacre & who blamed who for it until the evidence was finaly unearthed the the guilt reversed).
Cheers
Doug
Edited by dmarker
Feb. 15, 2003, 08:03:05 PM EST
Edited by dmarker
Feb. 15, 2003, 09:29:57 PM EST
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Post #81,959
2/15/03 7:27:31 PM
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As is usual in international relations
and france has no financial interest in their POV? Hardly, they have been profiting tremendously as well as Germany for the status quo.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
"France," he noted, "has neither winter nor summer, nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks, it is a fine country."
Mark Twain
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Post #81,967
2/15/03 8:00:24 PM
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Box you have an annoying habit of hijacking
a question presented to someone else. This is often a PITB because you step in and let them off the hook & your answer often is more a distraction than valid response.
Please give the targets the chance to respond then buy in.
Thanks Doug
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Post #81,995
2/16/03 12:45:14 AM
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Box did well.
Because even without support the Aussies would've gotten that trade agreement.
Turkey was going to get military assistance at least...and money guarantees most likely...simply due to geography...the US is pushing NATO to offer this support...to the point of nearly destroying the organization...or did you miss that little piece of the news.
And, as Box pointed out (by repeating what I have stated in other places) France, Germany, Russia and China financially benefit from the status quo...simply because they've been continuously violating the commercial rules they agreed to. France contracted with Hussein for control of Iraqi oil, Germany has been supplying chemicals to Iraq that along with valid uses can also be used to build WMD...etc...
Its >convenient< for the French to say "our people don't support action"...since they know their inaction will mean billions in revenue.
And I suppose you're bringing up Soviet war attrocities as some point about the US dividing the "spoils" of Iraq as incentive or some such nonsense. I wasn't a history major...but I do know a bit about it.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #82,013
2/16/03 9:04:22 AM
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Re: Box did well.
>>
And I suppose you're bringing up Soviet war attrocities as some point about the US dividing the "spoils" of Iraq as incentive or some such nonsense. I wasn't a history major...but I do know a bit about it.
<<
And this para sums you up to a tee. Doesn't answer the question but posts a tangential response to do with Soviet atrocities, not the fact that Russia was offered the northern part of Poland for signing on board the German invasion. And you know well that that was the point but you didn't have the fortitude to say so. How does this differ from Turkey's buy off other than in scope ? How ???
Cheers
Doug Marker
Fat lack of fortitude here lads
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Post #82,030
2/16/03 10:32:47 AM
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Well...so far...
...I have you telling me the plans. And I also know that we have committed to not using Turkey to stage an invasion...so why would we promise them anything beyond what NATO provides and the IMF help that we are already giving.
So we commit to give more financial aid...mostly because we left them pretty high and dry after 1991. I've seen no reputable source promising control of northern Iraq to Turkey...only assurances that a separate Kurdish state would not be supported.
So...no...I'd say there is still a substantial historical difference.
But its nice that you have equated the US and Turkey to Hitler and Stalin....and Iraq to Poland. If you really make that association then you must not have studied too hard.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #82,042
2/16/03 12:00:29 PM
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That's why I don't bother responding anymore.
All you will get from him are semantic games, lies and tangents.
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Post #82,054
2/16/03 1:17:55 PM
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Oh really.
Like when I call you on your lies...its too inconvenient for you to respond.
Right.
Like when I ask you to prove your assertions.
Its too inconvenient for you to respond.
It never seem sto stop you from asking for or doing the same.
Funny that. Fear.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #81,964
2/15/03 7:47:04 PM
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Weve been in a state of war with Korea for 50yrs whats 12?
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
"France," he noted, "has neither winter nor summer, nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks, it is a fine country."
Mark Twain
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Post #81,972
2/15/03 8:24:18 PM
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Box, Shooting from the lip again ...
Box, the US has been 'technically' *at war* with Korea via th UN. It is just not true to say that the United States is 'in* a state of war' with Korea today.
There is a very big difference between situation with Korea & Gulf today your statement just doesn't wash.
In KOREA even the 'current 'technical' state of war was sanctioned by the UN, also Gulf-1 was an alliance sanctioned by the UN. Gulf-2 is being opposed (at present due to lack of evidence to justify an invasion) by the same UN.
YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. UN has *not* yet approved an invasion. But UN support was good enough for Gulf-1.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #81,974
2/15/03 8:41:49 PM
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Brandioch often wants it both ways, why cant I :-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
\ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
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Post #81,978
2/15/03 9:25:07 PM
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Artful dodger tries to deflect yet again :-)
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Post #82,005
2/16/03 2:23:23 AM
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What "both ways"?
You didn't understand the situation and now that it has been explained to you (the bit about the UN support), you'll try to blame ME for your lack of understanding?
Again, why is it that the pro-war idiots find it so hard to stick with FACTS and have to keep resorting to LIES to "make" their point?
But when you're caught in a lie, then it is someone else's fault because they MADE you lie?
Again, you act like a spoiled, petulant child the same as when you got pissy about the UN.
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Post #82,025
2/16/03 10:14:18 AM
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See! :-) proof, thanx brandi
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
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\ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
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Post #82,031
2/16/03 10:34:03 AM
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Wow. Quit lying so much Box ;)
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #81,960
2/15/03 7:29:35 PM
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Box - will resp later today BUT is this best pro-war can do?
Due to time zone delay my resp will come late at night early am your time.
In general, I consider that your answers skirt around the questions so will deal with them 1 by 1.
more later
Doug Marker
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Post #81,963
2/15/03 7:43:56 PM
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anticipation, anticipation
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
"France," he noted, "has neither winter nor summer, nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks, it is a fine country."
Mark Twain
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Post #82,015
2/16/03 9:12:57 AM
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Response here, oh 6-sided one <grin>
1) Is the US Invasion of Iraq sanctioned by many countries in the world community ?
there are a lot of countries that support the Invasion from our traditional allies and new ones as well as a cross section of folks. France has large financial motives for the Status Quo, Germany and Belgium are supporting France at the moment and China is slow and cautious as usual. The letter signed by 10 Nations of the EU supported an Invation should not to be brushed away lightly by France or anyone else.
### Who supports the invasion without UN mandate other thaqn UK ??? - you diveriged off into an issue to do with who might support it ???
2) Is it justifiable to invade another country who has not attacked yours or declared war or stated any intent to do so, merely based on an opinion that they 'might' (as in Poland 1939) ?
In 1991 we were in a state of war with that country, we have no peace treaty, the original war was in defence of an Ally of ours, no treaty has been signed, this is a continuation of the original action. The original action caused a tremendous amount of dislike and distrust by the Iraqi's towards the Allies and the US in particular. This regime in Iraq would be a threat and should be removed.
### US is *NOT* at war with Iraq, UN was approached & authorised a UN action. AS pointed out many times you are distorting the facts. Also it is BULLshit to state it is a continuation of the original action because the UN authorized that but WONT authorize a unilater attack today - therein lies your dilema. You claim UN approval which isn't there but attack the UN as irrelevant !!!.
3) Is the invasion of Iraq gong to result in 100s to 1000s of civilian deaths ?
absolutely, anyone who claims otherwise is a fool. No one yet has designed a way for a war to be fought without death. Its a byproduct.
So killing civillians in an unsupported invasion of another country is ok - yeah !!!!!!
6) What happened to Osama Bin Laden & the war on Al-Qaeda ?
Nothing, different issue that is being worked by the same people that were working on it 9/12
### WHERE ???
7) Will invading Iraq & killing many of its citizens & soldiers result in more peace and security for America ?
Immediately after Iraq is secured there will be a short period of relative quiet in America from that quarter. After any large action there is a pause by all parties to see how things shake out. I dont see Sadam loyalists reforming for staging attacks in America Al Quida style, unless they already were members.
### Only time will tell but why do you think Bushites created homeland security then stopped the main focus on OBL. They know bloody well what the outcome will be for US invasion of Iraq. You do to.
5) When reading about this deed in 20 years time how will history judge the invasion - as a heroic American deed in support of world peace or an vulgar ugly blot on world and American history ? It will either be viewed as a success and a warning for change in the arab world or will meltdown completely. See articles I have posted on the state of the Arab League, explains it very well. Right now the ME and west asia is in an explosive state, this action will either defuse the tension, show that America can be a good friend to the neighbors or will set off the explosion, only time will tell.
Doing nothing guaranties the explosion, Invading Iraq and moving for change only guaranties a chance to not explode.
### This will be no less a disgrace than Vietnam.
Cheers Doug Marker
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,033
2/16/03 10:34:13 AM
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Ill redo this in another topic entry (new thread)
Created as new thread #82032 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=82032|Ill redo this in another topic entry]
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
\ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
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