Let me restate

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Post #70,110 by Silverlock 12/20/02 11:58:30 AM Reply	Let me restate My reference to mass transit being torpedoed by GM et al, was a illustration of a larger point. I am not trying to blame GM/Shell/Goodyear for the failures of mass transit. That is not the point I am pursuing. The consumer demand for oil has been manipulated by those who profit from that demand. The blame is shared. The dealer/user metaphor is not accurate. The consumer is not standing alone in this. Why should we ask our military to die for cheap oil when the rest of us aren't even being asked to get better mileage? -[link\|http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14107\|Molly Ivins]
Post #70,141 by bepatient 12/20/02 3:16:03 PM Reply	And we (the people) are the ones that allowed it. It was all legal. Granted it may have been "sneaky" or "underhanded"...but it was all legal. And again...making >them< pay does absolutely nothing except extend the amount of time that it takes for us to pay. Taxing corporations for something that they will immediately pass through on price is an irrelevance. Fool me once, shame on you...fool me for >years<....shame on me. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #70,146 by Silverlock 12/20/02 3:23:51 PM Reply	Yeah. Right. It was all legal. And you say you aren't naive. Why should we ask our military to die for cheap oil when the rest of us aren't even being asked to get better mileage? -[link\|http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14107\|Molly Ivins]
Post #70,149 by bepatient 12/20/02 3:37:27 PM Reply	Well...let me clarify... ...because risk/reward is involved. They may have cracked a minor law or 2 in the process..but..even in 1930 standards...being levied a fine of $5000 makes the law irrelevent. Cheaper to pay the fine than to fix the problem. None of this discussion really even makes sense in the context of my point. None of that should have been possible. The simple fact that is >was< possible verifies the failure that I've pointed out. And..complicit or not...fining oil companies is no different than taxing us directly. >We< pay. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #70,152 by drewk 12/20/02 3:44:59 PM Reply	No, a specific subset of "we" pay And..complicit or not...fining oil companies is no different than taxing us directly. >We< pay. But "we" would pay in proportion to how much we use it. If you want (or need) to drive something that gets 12 mpg, and I can get by on something that gets 36 mpg, doesn't it seem fair that you should pay a three-times-larger share of the costs? Three times as much for the roads, three times as much for the health costs, three times as much for every cost involved in over-the-road transportation. I would think you would be in favor of costs being borne, to the extent possible, by those responsible for them. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #70,153 by bepatient 12/20/02 3:50:29 PM Reply	Whcih is why.. ...I say just tax the gas. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #70,159 by drewk 12/20/02 4:29:06 PM Reply	I ... thought that was the original idea But don't feel like re-reading the whole thread. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #70,160 by bepatient 12/20/02 4:48:41 PM Reply	Neither do I ;-) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]

All over in a week? - (marlowe) - (91) - Dec. 16, 2002, 11:27:25 AM EST

This kind of excrement is why so much of the world hates us. - (mmoffitt) - (87) - Dec. 16, 2002, 11:46:16 AM EST

Man you guys are good. - (bepatient) - Dec. 16, 2002, 11:54:25 AM EST

Holy crap, you know how to pick your sources - (marlowe) - (4) - Dec. 16, 2002, 12:37:38 PM EST

Ummm.... - (folkert) - Dec. 16, 2002, 04:11:09 PM EST

Re: Classic Marlowe crap - (dmarker) - (1) - Dec. 17, 2002, 07:38:17 PM EST

But the link responded to ... - (bepatient) - Dec. 17, 2002, 08:21:40 PM EST

Better that than knowing how to pick your noses... - (admin) - Dec. 18, 2002, 12:06:23 AM EST

Where's the encouragement? - (ChrisR) - Dec. 16, 2002, 12:47:04 PM EST

The U.S. is also one of the world's largest oil producers. - (Mike) - (77) - Dec. 16, 2002, 01:05:19 PM EST

evidence is WTF I ended up in florida - (boxley) - Dec. 16, 2002, 03:26:57 PM EST

Diplomatic political-speak - an art unto itself. - (Simon_Jester) - (75) - Dec. 16, 2002, 03:46:08 PM EST

Yabbut - (Mike) - (74) - Dec. 16, 2002, 05:56:00 PM EST

I keep forgetting not to read for content. - (mmoffitt) - (72) - Dec. 16, 2002, 06:54:53 PM EST

Its in the eye of the beholder - (Mike) - Dec. 17, 2002, 12:52:18 PM EST

Some content for you. - (Mike) - (70) - Dec. 17, 2002, 01:55:03 PM EST

Interesting. - (mmoffitt) - (69) - Dec. 17, 2002, 03:54:46 PM EST

Stretch it any further and it'll break. - (bepatient) - Dec. 17, 2002, 03:59:16 PM EST

Once more unto the ridiculous - (Mike) - Dec. 17, 2002, 06:01:01 PM EST

To the Two Above - (mmoffitt) - (66) - Dec. 17, 2002, 09:43:16 PM EST

To the one above... - (bepatient) - (65) - Dec. 18, 2002, 08:03:25 AM EST

Why would he lie to a US Reporter? - (mmoffitt) - (64) - Dec. 18, 2002, 10:06:26 AM EST

What? - (bepatient) - (63) - Dec. 18, 2002, 10:46:13 AM EST

No. I just don't drink your brand of Kool-Aid. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (62) - Dec. 18, 2002, 11:21:22 AM EST

Then maybe you can explain the above post? - (bepatient) - (61) - Dec. 18, 2002, 12:22:11 PM EST

No one is two words. - (mmoffitt) - (60) - Dec. 18, 2002, 02:08:53 PM EST

My point is clear. - (bepatient) - (43) - Dec. 18, 2002, 02:25:44 PM EST

Just ask yourself, what rings true? - (mmoffitt) - (42) - Dec. 18, 2002, 02:37:51 PM EST

If thats is all the case... - (bepatient) - (3) - Dec. 18, 2002, 04:57:11 PM EST

Exactly! Well said. -NT - (Mike) - Dec. 18, 2002, 05:24:08 PM EST

Re: makes a great conspiricy theory - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Dec. 18, 2002, 06:43:51 PM EST

Maybe if I were one or had... - (bepatient) - Dec. 18, 2002, 09:00:17 PM EST

Ask yourself...... - (Mike) - (37) - Dec. 18, 2002, 08:10:50 PM EST

C'mon now... - (bepatient) - (1) - Dec. 18, 2002, 09:04:48 PM EST

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.........clarity at last -NT - (Mike) - Dec. 19, 2002, 07:30:13 AM EST

Unless we weren't after the oil.... - (Simon_Jester) - (34) - Dec. 19, 2002, 08:03:23 AM EST

So.....the gulf war - (Mike) - (1) - Dec. 19, 2002, 09:03:25 AM EST

Chuckle...sure - (Simon_Jester) - Dec. 19, 2002, 09:50:46 AM EST

Hmmm... - (bepatient) - (31) - Dec. 19, 2002, 10:25:32 AM EST

Okay, Beep. You tell me. Why do we need to attack Iraq? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (25) - Dec. 19, 2002, 11:36:43 AM EST

Well I've been told... - (bepatient) - (24) - Dec. 19, 2002, 01:52:38 PM EST

I like your solution to the energy (oil) problem. - (a6l6e6x) - (21) - Dec. 19, 2002, 08:15:37 PM EST

Mea Culpa syndrome... - (bepatient) - (20) - Dec. 19, 2002, 09:27:19 PM EST

The free ride comes from the larger sales they enjoy. - (a6l6e6x) - (3) - Dec. 19, 2002, 09:58:26 PM EST

Thats it all over - (bepatient) - (2) - Dec. 19, 2002, 10:18:20 PM EST

Wow, Beep - in non-Market mode, eh? - (Ashton) - (1) - Dec. 20, 2002, 12:49:30 AM EST

Damn...that was close ;-) - (bepatient) - Dec. 20, 2002, 09:51:47 AM EST

2 problems - (Silverlock) - (15) - Dec. 19, 2002, 10:48:32 PM EST

Re: 2 problems - (bepatient) - (10) - Dec. 19, 2002, 11:02:30 PM EST

Okay - (Silverlock) - (9) - Dec. 20, 2002, 11:15:49 AM EST

There is no naivite involved. - (bepatient) - (8) - Dec. 20, 2002, 11:46:03 AM EST

Let me restate - (Silverlock) - (7) - Dec. 20, 2002, 11:58:30 AM EST

And we (the people) are the ones that allowed it. - (bepatient) - (6) - Dec. 20, 2002, 03:16:03 PM EST

Yeah. Right. - (Silverlock) - (5) - Dec. 20, 2002, 03:23:51 PM EST

Well...let me clarify... - (bepatient) - (4) - Dec. 20, 2002, 03:37:27 PM EST

No, a specific *subset* of "we" pay - (drewk) - (3) - Dec. 20, 2002, 03:44:59 PM EST

Whcih is why.. - (bepatient) - (2) - Dec. 20, 2002, 03:50:29 PM EST

I ... thought that was the original idea - (drewk) - (1) - Dec. 20, 2002, 04:29:06 PM EST

Neither do I ;-) -NT - (bepatient) - Dec. 20, 2002, 04:48:41 PM EST

we have way too much mass for effective transit -NT - (boxley) - (3) - Dec. 20, 2002, 10:11:37 AM EST

Wrong. - (Brandioch) - (2) - Dec. 20, 2002, 11:23:20 AM EST

certainly we could all huddle in a mass at government - (boxley) - (1) - Dec. 20, 2002, 03:15:58 PM EST

Re: Checkpoints. - (mmoffitt) - Dec. 21, 2002, 03:51:02 PM EST

I'm sorry, I got distracted there for a second... - (jb4) - (1) - Dec. 20, 2002, 01:13:40 PM EST

Methinks you're still distracted. - (bepatient) - Dec. 20, 2002, 03:18:05 PM EST

Which war? - (Simon_Jester) - Dec. 19, 2002, 11:49:50 AM EST

No silly. - (Mike) - (3) - Dec. 19, 2002, 01:21:29 PM EST

*cough*...mine.... - (bepatient) - Dec. 19, 2002, 01:54:53 PM EST

How faked moon landings led to cheesy goldfish ;-) - (bbronson) - (1) - Dec. 19, 2002, 03:02:48 PM EST

:-) -NT - (Mike) - Dec. 19, 2002, 03:49:58 PM EST

Don't waste your time. - (Brandioch) - (1) - Dec. 18, 2002, 02:45:05 PM EST

Mea Culpa. - (mmoffitt) - Dec. 18, 2002, 02:48:28 PM EST

Alas, even my link doesn't show - (Simon_Jester) - (13) - Dec. 18, 2002, 03:09:59 PM EST

That is a matter of perspective. - (mmoffitt) - (12) - Dec. 18, 2002, 03:21:41 PM EST

Ditto. - (Brandioch) - (1) - Dec. 18, 2002, 03:57:44 PM EST

Not even close. - (bepatient) - Dec. 18, 2002, 09:48:03 PM EST

I think..... - (Mike) - (9) - Dec. 18, 2002, 05:22:23 PM EST

There were lots of signals.... - (Simon_Jester) - (8) - Dec. 18, 2002, 05:36:24 PM EST

Oh my...... - (Mike) - (5) - Dec. 18, 2002, 08:02:56 PM EST

I did state - as far as we can tell.... - (Simon_Jester) - (4) - Dec. 19, 2002, 07:58:03 AM EST

Yes - (Mike) - (3) - Dec. 19, 2002, 09:08:29 AM EST

Which goes back to my original question.... - (Simon_Jester) - (2) - Dec. 19, 2002, 09:51:38 AM EST

I gerfot...... - (Mike) - Dec. 19, 2002, 01:22:33 PM EST

Re: Debating Trees when discussion is about forests ... - (dmarker) - Dec. 20, 2002, 09:03:46 PM EST

How many incidents are needed? - (Brandioch) - (1) - Dec. 18, 2002, 10:11:41 PM EST

An angle on the times: HBO "Live from Baghdad" - (Ashton) - Dec. 20, 2002, 01:05:09 AM EST

Oh come on...quote it right - (Simon_Jester) - Dec. 16, 2002, 07:44:59 PM EST

You might want to do more research... - (Simon_Jester) - Dec. 17, 2002, 11:10:01 PM EST

Did you see the tape of W (fis and pere) kissing Enron ass? -NT - (deSitter) - Dec. 18, 2002, 10:34:26 AM EST

"might be"? - (Brandioch) - (2) - Dec. 16, 2002, 01:27:00 PM EST

Not American tank comapny - (Arkadiy) - Dec. 16, 2002, 02:52:55 PM EST

Have nominated Marlowe as ... - (dmarker) - Dec. 18, 2002, 08:54:48 AM EST

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