That's not an argument...

Post #59,426 by ChrisR 10/25/02 12:56:09 PM 10/25/02 1:15:06 PM Reply	That's not an argument... ...that's a contradiction. Simply stripping the decorative verbage and repeating the main points does not refine the argument, it only restates it. The contentions are specious, no matter how many times you wish to restate them. But the least you could do is embellish them with further explanation. Well, since the argument seems to be shedding little illumination, I might as well get diverted on a completely different tangent. I could be wrong, but I don't think further schooling in the art of argumentation would do me much good. I started competitive debate when I was in 8th grade and continued through 4 years of high school and a 4 year scholarship in college. The regimen for debate was to spend, on average, 60 hours a week involved in activities related to the extracurricular activity - a large number of those hours spent in the library doing research. If all those countless hours spent preparing for and delivering arguments hasn't prepared me to evaluate arguments, I don't think additional schooling will do the trick. As competitive debate goes, I was moderately successful. I really got into debate because of my natural predisposation to extreme shyness (that and I hated art class). Anyhow, I managed to snag a few trophies in my travels from coast to coast - even got them down from the attic a couple of months back (they had been up there for some 15 years), and found a place for them in my new work room (having just added on to our house). At this point in time, it's little more than Glory Days, but I did manage to impress my kids for all of 5 minutes. Anyhow, debate taught me several lessons I have carried on through life. Unfortunately, most of my fellows took the obvious one of "Crush the Weak". Most of my acquantances went on to become either lawyers or professors. I choose the more mundane world of programming, as I think that there is more beauty in building creations than there is in tearing down or protecting those that others do. One lesson debate did teach me is that if you hang out with smarter people than yourself, you will become smarter. Which brings me back to zIWETHEY. I hang out here because there are a large number of intelligent people in these parts - and I definitely include you in that list. But your style of argumentation can be a bit wearisome at times - amounting to a subtraction from the sum total of all knowledge rather than an addition. Granted, I consider it rare, but in the current instance about the Wall, you are displaying the very worst attributes in your style. On a larger scale, I do notice that the level of discourse has much deteriorated, even from it's miserable levels of just a few years back. Everyone seems more shrill and more certain in absolutes. Discussion is no longer an option, as posturing is quickly becoming the main course. This is not confined to zIWETHEY but it is rather obvious to me that divide between the sides is becoming deeper, and any in the middle are being swallowed whole. Discussions about subtleties, nuances and compromise are deeply discounted. Instead of being a debate or discussion, we entered into doing nothing more than exchanging contradictions. Anyhow, that's just a few ramblings which are not formulated very well, but they are put forward - not to be nitpicked apart. Doing so, would be the equivalent of trying to dissect a post from Ashton, and missing the ideas that are being expressed. [edit note: worrying about spelling tends to constrain my expressiveness :-)] Edited by ChrisR Oct. 25, 2002, 01:15:06 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #59,440 by Brandioch 10/25/02 2:21:13 PM Reply	Again, do you see where he claimed that he could use the words wall and fence interchangably?
Post #59,443 by ChrisR 10/25/02 2:31:59 PM 10/25/02 2:37:36 PM Reply	Rinse, Wash, Repeat Z = { X, Y } X = { A, B, C, D } Y = { C, D, E, F } X intersect Y = { C, D } X union Y = { A, B, C, D, E, F } = Z Not a perfect translation in math of the idea, but it better achieves the idea of how word substitution may be employed. Edited by ChrisR Oct. 25, 2002, 02:37:36 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #59,445 by Brandioch 10/25/02 2:37:20 PM Reply	I'm breaking this down for you. You've claimed that it was my logic that is faulty. I'm breaking this down for you. Again, do you see the point where he claimed he could use the words "wall" and "fence" interchangably? If you do, we can move on to the next point. If you don't, then that is the point where the misunderstanding occures. Or is it that you don't want to work on the misunderstanding anymore?
Post #59,456 by ChrisR 10/25/02 3:16:13 PM Reply	The subsets are interchangeable.... ...at the points at which they intersect (i.e. overlap). Or do I need to put this in plain English, Wall and Fence are bundles of abstract concepts. Many of the ideas they convey overlap. When the emphasis is on the overlapping concept, then, yes, they may be used interchangeably without a disruption in the connotation. If, however, you step outside of the overlapping subset and want to indicate meaning that falls outside of the region of intersection, then one term or the other becomes the proper term to use. In the current case, the emphasis is not on the physical attribute of the Wall or Fence. It is on the divisiveness that the barrier presents. Because the emphasis is on the "Act of Division", not the "Specific Property of the Division", Wall can be acceptably substituted for Fence to convey the true divisiveness of the barrier. As I implied previoously, fence has connotations of a more porous barrier - fences make good neighbors. Whereas wall has connotations of a non-porous border. So, if you want to convey the idea that the barrier was non-porous, you may choose to call it a wall. If you want to convey the idea that it was porous, you may call it a fence. Since you have chosen to ignore the concept of words as Sets, I can only conclude that you are stubbornly clinging to a viewpoint that is strictly boolean logic - it's either a fence or a wall, therefore its either a true statement or a false statement - either he is telling the truth or he is lying. Boolean logic works in limited circumstances, but it can easily be misapplied when extended beyond that domain. Of course, this whole fiasco could be solved by simply ascertaining some more facts - i.e. asking questions, cross-examination, etc... But since you want to base your rant on a single word, there's not much chance for illumination. You have made your conclusion and stuck with it, based on the tiniest shred of evidence. That evidence is not convincing and the conclusion that you draw is not grounded in logic - Ipso Facto - you are being illogical. If you do, we can move on to the next point. The next point in your dialectic was that because he called it a Wall, that this logically necessitated the specific conclusion that he is lying about being there. Faulty logic. Plain and simple. The logic being examined is: General Premise: he said there was a wall Specific Instance: It was a fence Specific Conclusion: he was not there Right now you are quibbling about whether the general premise has been established. I am also denying that the specific conclusion is necessitated, even if we assume that the general premise and specific instance is a given. There are a variery of rational explanations which can easily account for the fact your logic does not hold. Ironically, he said there was a FUCKING WALL, but I haven't seen you jump on the fact that the barrier at the border has never been known to copulate.
Post #59,488 by wharris2 10/25/02 5:09:17 PM Reply	Chris, you're arguing with an intractible ***hole.
Post #59,491 by Brandioch 10/25/02 5:17:08 PM Reply	You might want to ask yourself a question. The subsets are interchangeable.... ...at the points at which they intersect (i.e. overlap). Therefore, for the points at which they intersect... fence == barrier wall == barrier fence == wall ...at the points at which they intersect (i.e. overlap). Strange, but wasn't it you that told me that that was drivel? Now, you might want to ask yourself why you are unable to answer a simple question that has been presented to you three time. The question was: Do you see where he said that the words were interchangable? Rather than answering, you claim my logic is flawed, you go on about your past, and you provided me an instance where they would be interchangable. And, in that instance, the example I originally gave, (wall == barrier == fence) would be TRUE. But you claimed my logic was flawed. Why don't you take a time out and collect your thoughts and decide, once and for all, whether a wall is a fence or not. I've provided photographs, if you need them.

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