-----oooOOOooo----

Post #59,223 by screamer 10/24/02 6:21:59 PM Reply	-----oooOOOooo---- Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #59,225 by Brandioch 10/24/02 6:28:49 PM Reply	I expected that from you. Rather than support your claim that I defend tyrants..... Rather than support your claim that I first mentioned those other sites in Germany..... Rather than support your statement about anything...... No, you aren't a liar. You just lie.
Post #59,275 by Silverlock 10/24/02 10:04:49 PM Reply	This is beyond tiresome One trick pony needs to learn a new way. Please stop focusing on the minutae and try to address the point. You perhaps don't ralise how dissapointing it is to see you arguing these minor semantic points. Try to address the issue. If this post gives you the impression I have become pissed at you, trust your instincts. "A civilian gang of thieving lobbyists for the military industrial complex is running the White House. If to be against them is considered unpatriotic -- Hell, then call me a traitor." -- Hunter S. Thompson
Post #59,291 by Brandioch 10/24/02 11:13:46 PM Reply	The issue has been addressed. Our bases in Germany were NOT put there so that the German's would not forget their mistake (as Screamer claims). They were put there to stop Soviet expansion. That is why we had things like Reforger and why we were willing to nuke Germany to slow down the Soviet armour until we could move more forces to Germany. Have I phrased that clearly enough?
Post #59,315 by Silverlock 10/24/02 11:49:29 PM 10/25/02 12:02:40 AM Reply	One time only My admittedly limited understanding of the events surrounding the end of WWII leads me to the belief that the occupation and division of Germany by the Allied powers was a neccessary and sufficient action to explain to the world that this type of war will no longer be tolerated. This was a just punishment. It had an end. The so-called block to Soviet expansion was a later concern. I am horrified that my country is now contemplating a war of conquest. (link last sentance to a new thread?) "A civilian gang of thieving lobbyists for the military industrial complex is running the White House. If to be against them is considered unpatriotic -- Hell, then call me a traitor." -- Hunter S. Thompson Edited by Silverlock Oct. 25, 2002, 12:02:40 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #59,331 by Brandioch 10/25/02 1:07:12 AM Reply	Okay, this might seem a bit complicated. Stalin was on the allies' side. The "good" allies are invading from the west. The Soviets are "liberating countries" from the east. Countries like Poland and Lithuania. Keep these names in mind. After the war, Germany (and Berlin) was divided in occupied zones. US British French Soviet Meanwhile, we're still at war with Japan. Russia starts invading Korea, Manchuria and so forth. Keep these names in mind along with the ones earlier. So, eventually, WW II ends. On both fronts. The Soviets turn most of the countries they've "liberated" into satellite states. Recall those names? 1947, President Truman institutes the Truman Doctrine. The US will "...support free people who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures..." The US institutes the Marshall Plan. The London Conferences are held. A West Germany government is to be built. The Soviets blockade Berlin. The Germans under Soviet rule see how much better the Germans in the west live under the Marshall Plan and start moving there. Lots of them move. The Soviets lock down the borders. And so forth. The IMPORTANT item to note is the Truman Doctrine (of which the Marshall Plan was the economic implementation). No, the division of Germany was NOT to punish the Germans. If you don't believe that, check out the literature on the London Conferences (and London Plan) and the Truman Doctrine.
Post #59,334 by Silverlock 10/25/02 1:14:54 AM Reply	Is this when the wall (excuse me .. barrier) was built? The Germans under Soviet rule see how much better the Germans in the west live under the Marshall Plan and start moving there. Lots of them move. The Soviets lock down the borders. Just wondering. "A civilian gang of thieving lobbyists for the military industrial complex is running the White House. If to be against them is considered unpatriotic -- Hell, then call me a traitor." -- Hunter S. Thompson
Post #59,346 by Brandioch 10/25/02 2:01:12 AM Reply	Again, that's a bit complex. A quick google check to find the specific dates.... 1948 - 1949 - The Berlin Blockade. (no barrier, just the roads and railways are blocked) 1949 - Massive population shift from East Germany to West, continues until 1961 1952 - East Germany closes its border with West Germany. Special passes are needed to travel. (no barrier) The Berlin Wall went up on 16 August 1961. The border is fully barricaded in the 1960's. Oh, something I just found while checking the dates... President Truman's Foreign Service Advisor, George Kennan, developed the concept of "containment" for the Truman Doctrin.
Post #59,358 by Ashton 10/25/02 5:00:52 AM Reply	"The Iron Curtain" A Wall-less metaphor. [link\|http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/churchill-iron.html\| Churchill] invented that description in a speech in 1946. It stuck. I thought it interesting that Stalin was so predictable - reminded by a PBS reshowing of one of the excellent Battlefield series this PM. This one was about the Nazi invasion of USSR, undoubtedly rushed by Stalin's actions since the anti-aggression pact 2 years earlier. Stalin was busily gobbling up the Baltic States and, after a miserably inept attack on Finland - which needed almost all his Divisions to finally prevail in - he showed intentions re Romania, Yugoslavia etc. = [oil] again. Not only Hitler's future lebensraum but also his raw material supplies threatened. Point - that nearing end of WW-II (German surender in May), Stalin was busily reinforcing his occupation of all the buffer States between USSR and Europe. He clearly intended not to dis-occupy these locales. That this was counter to all agreements made at Yalta and before.. was no more a matter to Stalin than were Hitler's guarantees to.. that litany of countries mentioned in his Reichstag speech, (responding to a letter from Roosevelt seeking specific assurances). So while that 'Iron Curtain' was about this imaginary barrier between USSR and Europe - there is no question that the Berlin Wall and its extension across Germany via fences and mini-walls was seen by Stalin as the only means to keep E. Germans from fleeing West. But long prior to its erection from desperation: US/Allied presence in Germany morphed very quickly from (say) "assuring pacification" to simply, keeping Westward expansion of Stalin to a stalemate. Lots of nastier-Nazis were spared an appearance at Nuremburg, because of Murican John Dewey er pragmatism. Just like today and our newer despotic 'friends'. In fact, even prior to the official German surrender (Berlin itself captured by Soviets) - Americans were planning for an obvious confrontation with USSR - sooner or later. Scientists were being hustled to US (Von Braun et al) and "ex"-Nazis corraled for preparing Germany to resist, possibly even join the Allies against USSR. Many American generals saw this agenda quite before '44 - read Patton's remarks. Had Patton had his way, Allies + re-badged Wehrmacht troops would have rolled-back Stalin's incursions immediately after the Berlin surrender. (Ah well - 20/20 hindsight and all; the rest of the folks and esp. Truman weren't up to that much of a venture.) Pretty amazing what just TWO fucking-Crazed homo-saps can do eh? Even before Progress! transistors, suitcase nukes, rap. Imagine what we can do Next !? (You may not have to imagine) Ashton Harvey Wall-Martbanger
Post #59,482 by wharris2 10/25/02 4:49:12 PM Reply	Re: "The Iron Curtain" Don't tell any of that to Brandioch. He'll dissect the definition until it is sucked drier than a bone in a desert, then dissect it again.

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