Problem with this...

Post #59,063 by inthane-chan 10/24/02 11:08:06 AM Reply	Problem with this... ...is that every time before when we were in a depression/recession, went to war, and spent our way out of it, we went in without a "large" debt load, and came out with a "large" debt load, that we used our newfound economic strength to pay off. Now, we're going into a war with an already "large" debt load... End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
Post #59,075 by ben_tilly 10/24/02 11:46:46 AM Reply	More than that... Our military spending as a portion of GNP is higher than peacetime military spending in peacetime anytime before WW II. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #59,079 by bepatient 10/24/02 11:51:10 AM Reply	We control the debt's value We could deflate our way out of it if hard pressed. And we don't need full scale war to pull us out...we just need to get rid of the inventory (gah!) Its not really the amount spent anyway...we can more than afford it...its the >wisdom< attached to giving that percentage to Defense versus tackling some other, more pressing domestic issues. There's plenty of arguments about what those items should be. Defense spending is a direct driver to the economy (with the exception of research funding)...so spending it there has always had the effect of "baseloading" heavy industry. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,089 by deSitter 10/24/02 12:15:39 PM Reply	Re: We control the debt's value We could have spent the money on space exploration, thus demonstrating that we DO lead the way instead of just blowing hard. I have no problem with deficit spending if it amounts to infrastructure investment. Defense spending is usually just a money pit. -drl
Post #59,090 by Brandioch 10/24/02 12:20:42 PM Reply	But what effect would that have? We control the debt's value We could deflate our way out of it if hard pressed. At what effect on the economy and savings? And we don't need full scale war to pull us out...we just need to get rid of the inventory (gah!) I don't understand this. Is the problem that we're storing too many missles and bullets and such? Defense spending is a direct driver to the economy (with the exception of research funding)...so spending it there has always had the effect of "baseloading" heavy industry. And now we have a huge military budget. So there is even more "baseloading" going on. Yet I'm still predicting that the economy will get worse.
Post #59,094 by bepatient 10/24/02 12:37:49 PM Reply	Thats the glory of predicting the economy... You can always be right or wrong...depending on who you ask and what your base assumptions are. However, if history is your guide...war is good for business. Predict away...I'll let my monkey throw darts ;) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,096 by deSitter 10/24/02 12:40:03 PM Reply	Re: Thats the glory of predicting the economy... This is because before, it was technology investment. Modern defense spending creates nothing new, and in some ways nullifies the old - there is not one reason we need the F-22 over the 14,15,18, and A-10. The B-2 was a complete waste of money. -drl
Post #59,098 by bepatient 10/24/02 12:43:00 PM Reply	Its all still durable... ...and as such must be manufactured. Its not a waste in that sense. The only difference now is whcih sector of the economy takes the biggest portion. Not arguing weapons effectiveness...or wisdom...but somebody still has to build them and the parts that go into them. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,105 by deSitter 10/24/02 12:55:57 PM Reply	Then Where Are The Jobs? St. Louis used to have a massive base of defense workers - now mostly all gone. -drl
Post #59,127 by Brandioch 10/24/02 1:42:02 PM Reply	Bingo. Unemployment is high. Military spending is high. The deficit is high. We're in Afghanistan. Why isn't the economy doing better?
Post #59,136 by bepatient 10/24/02 2:03:54 PM Reply	Compared to what? [link\|http://www.bls.gov/wh/cpsbref3.htm\|http://www.bls.gov/wh/cpsbref3.htm] We're still below historical average. And >way< below the last recession. And now trending back down. And all indicators have the economy trending back up. So your point would be? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,353 by Brandioch 10/25/02 2:49:55 AM Reply	So, care to bet on it? By your chart and your claims, the economy should be improving. I say that it won't. I say that it will get worse.
Post #59,366 by bepatient 10/25/02 8:24:23 AM Reply	With you? A "friendly" wager? I suppose you would have to act like my friend first. And phrased as you have...of course you'll win...eventually...since the economy is cyclical and will, at some point, get worse. And I have no illusions as to whether or not you would weasel on a bet like that. It just happens to be getting better at the moment. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,417 by Brandioch 10/25/02 11:54:57 AM Reply	I never used the word "friendly". Nor any variation thereof. I suppose you would have to act like my friend first. Nice to see you still haven't changed. Still imagining things and responding to them. It's so nice to see that you claim to present evidence contradicting my position, but you refuse to commit yourself to your prediction. Then you try to blame me for it. The truth is that you know the economy is getting worse. You're just picking and choosing your facts in an attempt to "prove" I'm wrong. No, I'm not the one that would weasel. You're the one who's already started misquoting me. And it's only been one post.
Post #59,429 by bepatient 10/25/02 1:01:52 PM Reply	priceless. but thats what you get for poking fun at someone who has no sense of humor. Think what you like. But in your own style...you should be providing me proof of your assertion. I gave a link to a major economic indicator that refutes you. You stated opinion. I provided a fact. Unemployment is high. So you asserted. To which you were shown to be wrong by the facts. (lower that historical average and trending >down<. The truth is that you know the economy is getting worse. You're just picking and choosing your facts in an attempt to "prove" I'm wrong. The truth is that I >know< no such thing. Your attempting to push off >your< belief as >my< reality. Tough. You chose the fact. I proved you wrong. Choose some more. I'll support them or refute them as necessary. No, I'm not the one that would weasel. You're the one who's already started misquoting me. And it's only been one post. Ah...here's the difference. You're weaseling about the actual issue...and then blowing smoke about me "weaseling" by making a joke about it being a "friendly wager". You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,442 by Brandioch 10/25/02 2:30:46 PM Reply	I asked if you wanted to bet. But in your own style...you should be providing me proof of your assertion. I made a prediction. The economy is going to get worse. You seemed to be saying that it wouldn't. I am willing to bet on my prediction. You are not. The proof will be whether my prediction comes true. Because you are afraid of betting for your position, it shows that you do not actually believe your position.
Post #59,447 by bepatient 10/25/02 2:53:24 PM Reply	Even more typical. Pick the tiny part that you can get a toehold...and continue. Especially since you know you were proved wrong on one of your >facts<. So now you want to play with predictions...and accuse me of weaseling by making a joke that everyone else understood. And there are enough indicators around that we could right shift several fora when you decide (which I am certain you will)...that the indicators >I< provide don't really indicate a better economy because pork bellies are still depressed. I've got better things to do with my time than to teach you economics. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,527 by Brandioch 10/25/02 7:28:58 PM Reply	Put up or shut up. You can spin it any way you want to. When it comes right down to it, I'm willing to bet on my prediction and you aren't.
Post #59,545 by bepatient 10/25/02 9:13:41 PM Reply	.o0o. Goodie for you. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,575 by deSitter 10/25/02 10:40:02 PM Reply	What are those dots for? -drl
Post #59,835 by bbronson 10/28/02 8:42:03 AM Reply	Fortran flashbacks?
Post #59,847 by deSitter 10/28/02 9:55:15 AM Reply	DATA REACTION /'HAHA'/ -drl
Post #59,489 by wharris2 10/25/02 5:13:17 PM Reply	Re: priceless. Stop arguing with this ***ol, er idiot, er whatever.
Post #59,596 by Ashton 10/26/02 1:37:04 AM Reply	I'll take a piece of this non-action. You may read tea leaves, scan money velocities or sacrifice a burger-flipper to Adam Smith - and decide which market indicators you believe. I'll go with the psyche of the Leaders, their plans, the mood of the workers [thus buyers of Stuff] about: tax rebates for the rich + Billions of their retirement funds absconded with, and only a token few eventually being show-'tried' (all while knowing fershure that: the biz-stolen funds won't ever be returned). Bet proposed: One year 10/25/03 - the economy is further down than it is today - by recognized rococo biz-speak categories thoroughly exhausting the Econ-significance of the word down. USD 20 ? Got that famous courage of convictions ? Otherwise, neither opinion is worth that (at least measurable) pitcher of warm spit\ufffd Ashton Buggsy S. LLC In the final analysis everything depends on everything else Ashleigh Brilliant
Post #59,607 by bepatient 10/26/02 8:58:28 AM Reply	Pick your indicators. Use English You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,641 by Ashton 10/26/02 5:07:52 PM Reply	Net take-home pay of the lowest 25% - corrected for inflation (even by That nicely arcane and loaded formula du jour).
Post #59,658 by bepatient 10/26/02 7:30:14 PM Reply	Oooh...nice one ;) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,139 by bepatient 10/24/02 2:10:19 PM Reply	Alot of places like that. Philly is also one...with the loss of the Naval Shipyard. Those jobs (along with several of my neighbors) moved to South Carolina and Virginia. But we picked up a few hundred at Boeing down the road. Whats happening in St Louis is happening in other places...and there are other locations that are strapped for talent. The average is still better than the historical averages. >That< fact doesn't help anyone in St Louis (or East St Louis which needs it more)...but it helps in other locations. The micro sucks. The macro isn't as bad. That doesn't make pay the "micro's" bills, however. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #59,220 by boxley 10/24/02 6:12:52 PM Reply	the "just in time" labor model same as for parts No use keeping folks around if they arnt billable so contracting is the new model. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche

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