And your point is?

That since Bush came to power, Kuwait who so much appreciated US help in and after the Gulkf war, are now so anti US that Kuwaiti citizens are killing American soldiers and citizens in random shootings. The US is starting to advise travellers to be careful in Kuwait. Outside US we are getting more reports of these random shootings. The few that find there way to US news are the attacks on soldiers and are always blamed on al-Qaeda even when local reports refute that.

Point is the Bush has very sadly triggered the greatest anti-Americanism I have seen since the days of Vietnam & the cold war. This really bothers me. It also bothers me that news of it is being suppressed. Bush doesn't want ordinary US citizens to know the effects his admin's policies are creating.

Anti US feeling has taken off in Germany France is growing in Italy - is rampant in the Arab world. In Pakistan's recent elections, the Muslim extremeists who normally get about 5% of the vote managed to garner a substantial 25% - that is alarming. Indonesia is another flash point. I am angry with Bush & his crew for provoking this with their apparant arrogance over Iraq and their willingness to go unilateral in the face of worldwide incredultiy.

If you immediate reaction is to get angry - take time to read this message carefully. The anger is misdirected if it is at the world, it needs to be directed at who ever is generating any global odium against US.

Interestingly, I don't detect the same level of hostility in Australia or China (In China it seems to be just the same level of grumbling against US actions).

Cheers

Doug

It's just turned up the rhetoric in support of the right of a Middle Eastern dictatorship.

The myth is that the events of 9/11 resulted in sympathy for the U.S. that disappeared when the Bush Administration decided to concentrate on Iraq. Truth is that any temporary sympathy for the U.S. vanished in the instant it decided to take action - in this case Afghanistan. That Pakistan vote you cite has more to do with the Taliban (Pushtans) getting routed. So, do you think that the U.S. should have bombed Afghanistan? If you answered yes, then that anti-Americanism in Pakistan is a foregone conclusion - even before you start discussing any other actions (the U.S. also empowered Musharaf).

Closer to Arabia, specifically Kuwait, I don't think the hatred emanating from the area is based strictly on Iraqis question. If it were the only issue, the Iranians, Kuwaitis and Saudis would probably be supportive of overthrowing Saddam. However, that is not the only issue - there is also the question of Palestine that overrides all other aspects in the MidEast. The countries in the region are not so much pissed off that we want to get rid of Saddam as they are pissed that we consider Saddam to be a much higher priority than the question of Palestine. (Those Kuwaitis that you singled out had watched news of Israelis actions prior to going postal).

Yes, I think that Bush has caused Anti-Americanism to rise because of his position on Iraq. So what happens if the U.S. never invades Iraq? It is strange how everyone proclaims that the U.S. has gone unilateral, when American troops are not doing anything in Iraq that they have not been doing for the past 10 years. Oh you mean that Bush is advocating a regime change, whether or not the UN or the EU sanctions military action. Last I checked, the US was waiting for the UN to pass a resolution, though the U.S. has one thing in mind and Russia and France another.

Of course, if the US wasn't threatening Iraq, it's likely that the rest of the world would instantly send money and manpower to Iraq and ignore all those pesky issues of what Saddam wants to do with that money. France, Germany, and Russia can try to cop that they are only interested in multilateralism, but the fact is that they are more than willing to do business with Iraq. Which brings up the other point. Even if the U.S. wasn't proposing a regime change, we've had Iraq carved up for the last 10 years. We've also had sanctions applied against the country. By all accounts, the war never ended, it just came to a ceasefire. The world may be mad that we are threatening to finish the job - but they were already mad that we were trying to apply economic sanctions.

The status quo in Iraq is not sustainable. We need to get our planes out of there and lift the economic sanctions. How we do this is the real question. The peace of the 1990 war was a false peace.

Now you tell me: You say the world doesn't want further intervention? What's the alternative? Permanent protection of the Kurds in the North and Shiites in the south is not an option. Sanctions tend cause as much Anti-Americanism as a proposed US intervention. So should we get our aircraft out of Iraqis airspace and abandon the sanctions? And what would be the result?

Anti US feeling has taken off in Germany France is growing in Italy - is rampant in the Arab world.

I don't think that Anti-Americanism of Europe has much in common with Anti-Americanism in the Islamic world. The fundamentalist Islamic movement, after all, doesn't really make a distinction between American, European or Australian - they're all Westerners.

It also bothers me that news of it is being suppressed. Bush doesn't want ordinary US citizens to know the effects his admin's policies are creating.

Ain't no suppression here - it's not like we don't know that Anti-Americanism has become rampant since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Don't confuse suppression with the fact that Americans don't equate differences of opinion with the right of people to blow themselves up in large crowds of civilians.

Perhaps instead of blaming everything on those ugly Americans, the EU, Russia and the UN could actually propose a reasonable resolution (one that has teeth) to get Iraq to abide by the terms of the UN resolutions. While they're at it, maybe they could get the Palestinians and Israelis to come to terms.

Like it or not, these are the two most important issues in the world today. I think you'll find that without the US neither of these will get very far. It'd be nice to see better American leadership on these issues. But it'd be nice also if the rest of the world would provide some leadership every once in a while - beyond merely promoting Anti-Americanism as their claim to fame. So Germany and France don't want the U.S. to go to war in Iraq - what's your alternative besides do nothing and hope the problem goes away.

Post #58,239 by ChrisR 10/22/02 10:05:45 AM Reply	And your point is? Is it that the Kuwaitis really wanted to be part of greater Iraq? Personally, I think the whole of the mideast is a wasteland - I have little desire to visit the region - safe or not - music, arts, and entertainment leaves a lot to be desired.
Post #58,588 by dmarker 10/22/02 8:22:01 PM Reply	Re: The point is That since Bush came to power, Kuwait who so much appreciated US help in and after the Gulkf war, are now so anti US that Kuwaiti citizens are killing American soldiers and citizens in random shootings. The US is starting to advise travellers to be careful in Kuwait. Outside US we are getting more reports of these random shootings. The few that find there way to US news are the attacks on soldiers and are always blamed on al-Qaeda even when local reports refute that. Point is the Bush has very sadly triggered the greatest anti-Americanism I have seen since the days of Vietnam & the cold war. This really bothers me. It also bothers me that news of it is being suppressed. Bush doesn't want ordinary US citizens to know the effects his admin's policies are creating. Anti US feeling has taken off in Germany France is growing in Italy - is rampant in the Arab world. In Pakistan's recent elections, the Muslim extremeists who normally get about 5% of the vote managed to garner a substantial 25% - that is alarming. Indonesia is another flash point. I am angry with Bush & his crew for provoking this with their apparant arrogance over Iraq and their willingness to go unilateral in the face of worldwide incredultiy. If you immediate reaction is to get angry - take time to read this message carefully. The anger is misdirected if it is at the world, it needs to be directed at who ever is generating any global odium against US. Interestingly, I don't detect the same level of hostility in Australia or China (In China it seems to be just the same level of grumbling against US actions). Cheers Doug
Post #58,626 by ChrisR 10/22/02 10:27:07 PM Reply	Anti-Americanism is not new It's just turned up the rhetoric in support of the right of a Middle Eastern dictatorship. The myth is that the events of 9/11 resulted in sympathy for the U.S. that disappeared when the Bush Administration decided to concentrate on Iraq. Truth is that any temporary sympathy for the U.S. vanished in the instant it decided to take action - in this case Afghanistan. That Pakistan vote you cite has more to do with the Taliban (Pushtans) getting routed. So, do you think that the U.S. should have bombed Afghanistan? If you answered yes, then that anti-Americanism in Pakistan is a foregone conclusion - even before you start discussing any other actions (the U.S. also empowered Musharaf). Closer to Arabia, specifically Kuwait, I don't think the hatred emanating from the area is based strictly on Iraqis question. If it were the only issue, the Iranians, Kuwaitis and Saudis would probably be supportive of overthrowing Saddam. However, that is not the only issue - there is also the question of Palestine that overrides all other aspects in the MidEast. The countries in the region are not so much pissed off that we want to get rid of Saddam as they are pissed that we consider Saddam to be a much higher priority than the question of Palestine. (Those Kuwaitis that you singled out had watched news of Israelis actions prior to going postal). Yes, I think that Bush has caused Anti-Americanism to rise because of his position on Iraq. So what happens if the U.S. never invades Iraq? It is strange how everyone proclaims that the U.S. has gone unilateral, when American troops are not doing anything in Iraq that they have not been doing for the past 10 years. Oh you mean that Bush is advocating a regime change, whether or not the UN or the EU sanctions military action. Last I checked, the US was waiting for the UN to pass a resolution, though the U.S. has one thing in mind and Russia and France another. Of course, if the US wasn't threatening Iraq, it's likely that the rest of the world would instantly send money and manpower to Iraq and ignore all those pesky issues of what Saddam wants to do with that money. France, Germany, and Russia can try to cop that they are only interested in multilateralism, but the fact is that they are more than willing to do business with Iraq. Which brings up the other point. Even if the U.S. wasn't proposing a regime change, we've had Iraq carved up for the last 10 years. We've also had sanctions applied against the country. By all accounts, the war never ended, it just came to a ceasefire. The world may be mad that we are threatening to finish the job - but they were already mad that we were trying to apply economic sanctions. The status quo in Iraq is not sustainable. We need to get our planes out of there and lift the economic sanctions. How we do this is the real question. The peace of the 1990 war was a false peace. Now you tell me: You say the world doesn't want further intervention? What's the alternative? Permanent protection of the Kurds in the North and Shiites in the south is not an option. Sanctions tend cause as much Anti-Americanism as a proposed US intervention. So should we get our aircraft out of Iraqis airspace and abandon the sanctions? And what would be the result? Anti US feeling has taken off in Germany France is growing in Italy - is rampant in the Arab world. I don't think that Anti-Americanism of Europe has much in common with Anti-Americanism in the Islamic world. The fundamentalist Islamic movement, after all, doesn't really make a distinction between American, European or Australian - they're all Westerners. It also bothers me that news of it is being suppressed. Bush doesn't want ordinary US citizens to know the effects his admin's policies are creating. Ain't no suppression here - it's not like we don't know that Anti-Americanism has become rampant since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Don't confuse suppression with the fact that Americans don't equate differences of opinion with the right of people to blow themselves up in large crowds of civilians. Perhaps instead of blaming everything on those ugly Americans, the EU, Russia and the UN could actually propose a reasonable resolution (one that has teeth) to get Iraq to abide by the terms of the UN resolutions. While they're at it, maybe they could get the Palestinians and Israelis to come to terms. Like it or not, these are the two most important issues in the world today. I think you'll find that without the US neither of these will get very far. It'd be nice to see better American leadership on these issues. But it'd be nice also if the rest of the world would provide some leadership every once in a while - beyond merely promoting Anti-Americanism as their claim to fame. So Germany and France don't want the U.S. to go to war in Iraq - what's your alternative besides do nothing and hope the problem goes away.
Post #58,700 by dmarker 10/23/02 6:58:29 AM Reply	Re: Good points & some contentions will respond point by point when time permits - you raise many interesting issues & views Cheers Doug

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