Post #56,881
10/15/02 5:37:59 AM
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Little Indonesian news coverage here ever,
as you might suspect from the fare covered by our talking heads on the 'news' (which you've seen here, on visits). Even at the height of the E. Timor massacres 3? years ago, perhaps KPFA (Berkeley anti-Establishment FM station) and a few other independents across the US - provided some sporadic coverage. Truss-ad section elsewhere.
Betcha that not 1 in 100 here could point within 1000 miles of where E. Timor is; maybe 1:40 for Bali - a veritable US Yuppie paradise now. I know of some ~locals who hold 'workshops' there. Beautiful place, friendly people - apparently this ugliness has zippo to do with the normal inhabitants of Bali. From reports - no hint of 'religiosity' in the Balinese; they don't meddle and they don't issue fatwas.
Most of the Google stuff appears dated, entries around the time of the major atrocities in E. Timor -- so egregious that even the insouciant Western countries who had trained these thugs in Kopassus, began to notice the War Crimes trials no doubt inevitable (if the UN has any money to run them). I guess the other links are in Tetun; I can't decipher any roots. (But the elite spoke Portuguese!)
It seems that the US lead in training local thugs for popular suppression in our surrogate S. American US-Fruit banana republics, has set the example for such training worldwide. What a testament for US 'Principles' - that we have for so long been assisting such scum to magnify oppression with shiny new US-supplied hi-tech gadgetry; please to call it er "police assistance in maintaining LawnOrder". Yep, guess these are 'Conservative' police groups, alright.
I wouldn't know how to compare the viciousness ascribed to K. with tales of the S. American US-supported fiefdoms - but it sounds from these texts as if Indonesians win the prize for sustained, overt brutality 24/7 and Suharto, Pol Pot, and Lon Nol were spawned from similar mutants. Brrrrr
re Bali - That report of the "new tank" and black-suited warriors can only be called ominous. Who next, from 'official sources' could anyone believe? as the inevitable spin is being spawned. But surely the most significant aspect - as you mentioned elsewhere - is the precise timing of this madness. This does not look like an event which shall be grokked - for many years. Recall how long it took to get the real-er evidence on the CIA direct involvement in the assassination of Allende, despite immediate partial-info and lots of uncheckable rumours..
So then, from the POV of the propaganda-malleable in US and elsewhere, will the increased fear-factor of random terrorists: drive more over to the "bomb the people who scare us back to the Stone Age" group? or further discredit "the Bush Rush to open a [oil] blitzkrieg and avenge Daddy"?
Oh well.. whatever Dubya/Cheney and the Corporate boys plan next - I smell depression here: both kinds. Which shall have immediate political overtones, thus raise the level of attack-ads for our coming midterm elections - certainly not induce anything like open and useful debate of Anything. Already we are seeing the proof that the first casualty in war (and especially just before) is Truth.
What a species -
Ashton
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Post #56,885
10/15/02 6:04:07 AM
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Re: US spin doctors already working on this one
[link|http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/15/1034561148460.html|Local investigation will fail warns US]
It is from the Sydney Morning Herald and I believe the statements in it will prove to be true as far as not finding who did it.
When taken into context with the other stuff I posted, about rogue military elements & bomb blasts not being solved in the past, I suspect Kopassus ahead of any other group, but as the other wise-heads are saying - "I don't discount Muslim extremeists, but am inclined to look at the more logical perpetrators"
Cheers
Doug
....................
Local investigation will fail, warns US
October 15 2002
US officials believe the perpetrators of the deadly weekend car-bombing on the Indonesian resort island of Bali had foreign help and predict that the local investigation of the attack will lead nowhere, according to a US State Department analysis.
The report, obtained by Agence France Presse yesterday, said the bombers were probably not native Balinese - mainly Hindus, whose tourism-dependent economy will likely be shattered by the loss of visitors - but rather were Islamic militants from abroad or Indonesians from other parts of the country.
In either case, the report said that the bombers, who may have received instruction at terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, Sulawesi in Indonesia or Mindanao in the southern Philippines, almost certainly had outside help in planning the attack.
"Whoever the actual perpetrators were, radical Muslims from Indonesia or elsewhere, we speculate that they had foreign help," the report added.
That assistance would have consisted of target surveillance, operational planning for the attack, the technical know-how to put together the bombs and where to place them for maximum casualty effect, it noted.
"It is likely that following the example elsewhere in the world, the foreign technical advisors had left the country by the time the attack took place," according to the report.
It did not address specifics of who might have been involved in Saturday's bombing which killed at least 183 people, mainly foreigners.
But it predicted that Indonesian authorities investigating the bombing will have no success in tracking the perpetrators down.
"Local authorities will work hard to solve this case, but their investigation will be fruitless and the perpetrators will neither be identified nor apprehended," the report said, adding concerns that the economic implications of the attacks might interfere with the probe.
US officials have privately warned in recent months that they do not believe President Megawati Sukarnoputri has done enough to crack down on radical Islamic groups - and cautioned that Indonesia may be a weak link in the US anti-terror campaign.
There also appears little confidence in Indonesia's capacity to protect foreigners, especially Americans, disquiet that has provoked a flurry of warnings to US citizens in the country and suggestions even before the bombing that some US diplomats could be withdrawn.
The State Department ordered the departure of non-essential diplomats and the families of all embassy employees from Indonesia on Sunday, citing a "mounting threat to Americans wherever they are in Indonesia".
The report suggested that cultural factors could torpedo the probe.
"There is also a danger that local officials under pressure from Jakarta to show results, may arrest -- or shoot resisting arrest -- the 'usual suspects' or local criminals, and pronounce the case solved, and Bali safe to travel to once again," the report said.
Regardless of the quality of the investigation, the report said that Indonesians, who place great emphasis on the Asian concept of "face", have been badly shaken by the bombing.
"This has occurred in a culture where the people are proud of their country, and preservation of face is a primary social trait," it said. "Indonesia and its people have been humiliated by this event."
"The authorities and the people must now face the fact that they have a serious terrorism problem on their hands, and must deal with it, or lose investment, tourism and credibility from the international community."
No group has yet claimed responsibility for the attack but Indonesia-based Islamic groups like Laskar Jihad and the leader of Jemaah Islamiyah have been mentioned as possible al-Qaeda co-conspirators.
But the report said it did not matter exactly which brand of extremist is to blame.
AFP
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Post #56,890
10/15/02 6:50:44 AM
10/15/02 7:44:27 AM
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Re: Head of Muslim group accuess foreigners of blast
There are two items below - 1 where the leader of the main Muslim groups defends himself and the 2nd is where the Indonesian Govt decides to blame al-Qaeda as the perps
[link|http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/15/1034561104249.html|Why would we do this ? says cleric]
I won't add any commentary so each person can judge the item for themselves.
Radical Muslims deny bomb attack and blame US
By Tony Parkinson and Louise Williams
October 15 2002
Abu Bakar ... "why would I?"
The radical Islamic group being promoted as the chief suspect for the bombing has denied any involvement in the attacks and has blamed the United States, or other "foreigners".
Abu Bakar Bashir, the cleric who leads Jemaah Islamiah (JI), accused the US of using the attack to confirm its assertion that radical Indonesian Muslims are linked to international terrorist groups, in particular al-Qaeda.
"Considering the huge power of the explosives used, it must be the work of foreigners, most probably the US," Abu Bakar said.
"Why would I do this in the midst of the US allegations against me? It would only confirm President Bush's allegation that we are the biggest terrorists in the region."
Abu Bakar and other senior JI members had gone to ground yesterday as circumstantial evidence focused suspicion on their group, which is based in central Java. However, speaking at the home of a friend in Jakarta late on Sunday, Abu Bakar spoke out.
The rhetoric sounds familiar to Western ears in the wake of September 11. If Abu Bakar is not bin Laden's equivalent in South-East Asia, he is certainly singing from the same songbook.
The editor-in-chief of one of Indonesia's most respected magazines, Tempo, Bambang Harymurti, said on a prearranged visit to Sydney that JI would be "at the top of my list" as it was trying to provoke religious war in provinces where Muslims were in the minority.
Bali, where most of the population is Hindu, was a perfect target, he said.
Translated literally, all JI means is Islamic community. It began as a village model for resisting the wicked ways of the secular world, a social structure that would allow devout Muslims in Indonesia to do their own thing.
By the late 1990s it was a fire-breathing revolutionary force, bent on eliminating all Western influences in South-East Asia and creating an Islamic super-state stretching from the Philippines, through Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei to the heartlands of the Indonesian archipelago.
More disturbingly, it became part of the campaign by an international network of Islamic extremists, led by al-Qaeda, to wage war against the West in a bid to restore Islam's stature as the dominant global ideology.
Abu Bakar had come to the attention of the authorities in Jakarta in the late 1970s, the former Islamic Youth Movement leader having set up a school with a student colleague, Abdullah Sungkar, in central Java.
The two were arrested in 1978, accused of circulating a book that urged Muslims to go to war against enemies of Islam.
A witness in the case, a university assistant rector, was murdered; but the trial went ahead in 1982. Both were sentenced to nine years' jail for subversion.
By the end of the year, however, they had won appeals to have their sentences commuted.
In 1984, then president Soeharto moved to crush them once and for all.
Abu Bakar fled to Malaysia. From this sanctuary, he helped recruit fellow Indonesians to join the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. He travelled to Saudi Arabia on fund-raising missions and sent followers to Pakistan.
Fellow exiles went on to Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany and Egypt. Abu Bakar kept in contact with all of them.
It was an era of radicalisation of the Islamic movement.
In Malaysia, Abu Bakar began to surround himself with a hard core of militants.
One of these was Hambali, alias Riduan Isamuddin, a 37-year-old Indonesian who fought against the Soviet Union and who is reputedly the mastermind of al-Qaeda cells in this part of the world. Hambali remains at large and, if Western intelligence is credible, also very active.
Another former student was Rahman al-Ghozi, who is now in jail in Manila, where police say he has confessed to a role in a series of bombings in Manila in December 2000. Thirteen JI operatives were found to be involved in various terrorist plots.
Potentially the most lethal was the plan to load seven trucks with three tonnes of ammonium nitrate (a chemical fertiliser often used in homemade bombs, and capable of the sort of explosive seen in the Bali bombings) for targets including the US embassy, the British and the Australian high commissions, the Israeli embassy, and other American assets.
After Singapore's elder statesman, Lee Kuan Yew, identified Abu Bakar as the emir or "commander" of JI, Indonesian police questioned Abu Bakar, but refused to arrest him, arguing they lacked evidence.
*******************************************************************
[link|http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/15/1034561103777.html|Indonesian Govt scrambles to blame al-Qaeda for Bali brouha]
Indonesia blames al-Qaeda for blast
By Mark Riley, Matthew Moore and Mark Baker in Kuta
October 15 2002
Wreaths at the scene of the explosion outside the Sari Club in Kuta yesterday. Photo: Rick Stevens
After a crisis meeting of its cabinet, the Indonesian Government announced it believed al-Qaeda was responsible for the terrorist attack in Bali in which the death toll now stands at 183.
According to an Indonesian news service, the defence minister, Martori Abdul Bejalil, said: "I am sure that there is a link between al-Qaeda and what happened in Bali ... There is a professional and sophisticated terrorist movement. They can disappear right after the explosion."
With the attack now appearing to have firmed Indonesia's resolve to pursue Islamic terrorists, Australia is preparing for a national day of mourning to grieve for those lost in the largest attack outside wartime.
The death toll now shows 14 Australians dead, 113 injured and 220 missing.
"The word terrorism is too antiseptic an expression to describe what happened," the Prime Minister, John Howard, told Parliament yesterday.
"What happened was barbaric, brutal mass murder with no justification."
Earlier yesterday, Mr Howard said the bombing appeared to be part of a pattern of terrorist actions in recent times, citing the October 6 attack on the French supertanker Limburg.
He announced a series of measures, following a meeting of the National Security Committee, aimed at increasing Australia's preparedness in the light of the heightened terrorist threat.
Australia's already contentious anti-terrorism laws will be further reviewed, as will the country's broader security arrangements.
The Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, and the Justice Minister, Chris Ellison, flew to Indonesia last night to liaise with their Indonesian counterparts as the hunt for those responsible for the bomb blast continues.
They will soon be joined by the Australian Federal Police Commissioner, Mick Keelty, and the head of ASIO, Dennis Richardson, who will lead the Australian component of the investigative team.
The attack has underlined Australia's vulnerability to terrorist attacks on its own shores and spawned deep public concern that the country's strong support for the United States' policies on terrorism and Iraq has made it a terrorist target.
In Indonesia, the Vice-President, Hamzah Haz, has softened his long-standing defence of one of the prime suspects, Abu Bakar Bashir.
After a crisis cabinet meeting, Mr Hamzah conceded the blast was "an act of terrorism", stressing that "no one who is involved in terrorism, ordinary people, government officials or ulama [Muslim religious leader] has impunity from the law".
This is the first time that Mr Hamzah has opened the way for Abu Bakar, 64, to be pursued.
Reports from police and security sources around the region continued to place Abu Bakar at the top of the list of suspects.
His Jemaah Islamiah group has regularly been identified as having links with al-Qaeda.
One report claims that authorities in Singapore believe there are now two al-Qaeda trained bomb making experts working in Indonesia with JI.
Intelligence sources in the region have also argued the attack appears to be carried out by Muslims because it took place in Hindu-dominated Bali, minimising the chances of killing Muslims.
The Indonesian Health Minister, Ahmed Suyudi, said the search for victims had ended. All the bodies that had been recovered were at Sanglah Hospital in Denpasar.
In Canberra, Federal Parliament passed a unanimous motion condemning the bombing.
During the debate, Mr Howard declared next Sunday a national day of mourning. The Opposition Leader, Simon Crean, said he feared last Saturday "will be our single blackest day since World War II" and called on the Government to host a regional summit to devise strategies against terrorism.
Edited by dmarker2
Oct. 15, 2002, 07:44:27 AM EDT
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Post #56,906
10/15/02 8:51:02 AM
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Doug that is the same cleric who said
"I make many knives and send them all over the world, if they cut someon e I am not at fault" So anything he says is somewhat suspect however Indonesian History will tell us that piracy cannibalism and psychotic infighting is not always from the past. Current internal Indonesian politics could have easily played a hand here.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #56,917
10/15/02 9:20:16 AM
10/15/02 9:57:59 AM
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Re: Truth went up in the blast - but I agree that
The group he runs is dangerous and if not curbed somehow, will lead to massive instability in the region.
I sure as s*** don't want OBL's Andalusian fantasy on the northern tip of Australia. Even though my lot are in the minority in the region, I am quite happy to be selfish, a lot of other Aussies share this view. At least we are honest about it.
The blast has had these immediate effects ...
1) Stopped the to'ing & fro'ing of the Indonesian govt re clamping down on Islamic extremeists (the govt was always too fearful of a backlash that would wipe them out if they clamped down - the sight of a rampaging Indonesian mob would scare anyone (well maybe not a Kopassus man).
2) Created the clear impression that al-Qaeda are in Indonesia in force
3) Branded this local 'al-Qaeda' related org as filty muderous bastards (no matter who set & fired the bomb)
4) Has reversed the low Australian support for Howard's support of Bush's unilateral 'coalition'
5) Has brought terror to the hearts of Aussies and Balinese
6) Has sent shockwaves through SE Asia (Indonesian stock market nose dived) - Bali tourism will die for quite a while (airlines are already cutting back their Bali flights as tourists scarper). Fiji is named as the country that may take up the slack & in Australia there is a view that many Aussies will now holiday & spend within Australia & thus the country's economy will benefit significantly.
*******************************************
I still will argue the case that on the surface, it made no sense whatsoever for Abu Bakar to initiate a horrific attack that was so clearly going to backfire to the point of self destruction for him and his org and their dreams. This would be like me deciding to shoot you by concealing the gun behind my back & firing through myself to get you. As stupid as you want to call the guy, I don't believe he is that stupid. I think the case that says he was so is really the stupid part of the discussion.
But we will all believe what we want to & select the facts we find most palatable (even when the facts don't really exist). I already believe we will only ever be given enough circumstantial evidence to point an accusing finger at these people but never a smoking gun. Despite my thoughts on the Bali blast - I will be more than happy to see Abu Bakar's Jemaah Islamiah and their extreme behaviour, slapped down heavily (these were the bastards I mentioned in other posts, who would go around attacking bars & clubs in Java & threatening to kill Americans). Their idiot behaviour has become the weapon their enemies can manipulate against them to destroy them. But, I would never condone any scenario that might justify a covert op on one's own, in order to manipulate resentment against others.
So, we at least are sure to agree that This guy & his group need to be dealt with. My concern is how it might have been achieved.
Cheers
Doug
Edited by dmarker2
Oct. 15, 2002, 09:57:59 AM EDT
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Post #57,276
10/16/02 11:44:35 PM
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Re: You may have a point re Bashir the Bullshitter
The more I read about and spoken by Abu Bakar Bashir, the less I would trust what he says.
He is currently suing TIME mag for claiming he was linked to Terrorism.
Word in the papers now is he will be arressted & his movement disbanded.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #57,282
10/16/02 11:53:44 PM
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even better the lascars are disbanding
right, Rogers must be turning over in his grave,
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #57,321
10/17/02 8:27:36 AM
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Re: The more I read of Abu Bakar Bashir's Bashers ...
The more I see them as the deep seated long term evil. Laskar mob seemed to keep their focus on Ambon & the Moluccas - these were the crew I said had Kopassus agents urging them on - theory was that early on, the civil disorder would keep Suharto in power, but that didn't happen & he went, by then the Laskars had a life of their own & Jihadistas flocked from everywhere to 'slit a Christian throat' as their jihad trophy.
I am not the *least* surprised they claim to be disbanding because now they know the tables may well turn & their past comes back & bites then hard.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #56,931
10/15/02 10:21:22 AM
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Okla. City
When that happened, I remember looking at my coworker and stating "there are a lot of angry white people out there". He looked at me like I was nuts. I don't know what made me suspect that, but the general scenario just didn't seem like the work of Islamic terrorists.
-drl
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Post #57,053
10/15/02 7:01:13 PM
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Re: CIA says it had advance notice - Oz PM says 'what?'
[link|http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/16/1034561164432.html|CIA claims it knew of attack]
John Howard when asked about the report says - noone passed any such report to him.
Other Oz agencies say - although we share intel with US, noone passed that one to us.
US ambassador in Oz also says he was not aware of any such report.
FULL NEWS REPORT ...
CIA warned of attack 14 days before
By Mark Riley and Tom Allard
October 16 2002
The Central Intelligence Agency issued an intelligence report listing Bali among possible targets of a pending terrorist attack just two weeks before the weekend's devastating Kuta bomb blast, the Washington Post is reporting.
The warning was based on intercepted communications picked up in late September, which signalled a strike against "a Western tourist site". "Bali was mentioned in the US intelligence report," the paper says.
All information gathered by United States and Australian intelligence agencies is shared between the countries. But the Prime Minister, John Howard, said yesterday he had no knowledge of the US report.
The US embassy in Jakarta issued two travel notices, on September 26 and October 10, warning Americans and other Westerners to "avoid large gatherings and locations known to cater primarily to a Western clientele, such as certain bars, restaurants and tourist areas".
The Australian Department of Foreign Affairs' most recent travel advice before the attacks was on September 20. It urged Australians to maintain high levels of personal security amid a risk of bomb explosions, including in tourist areas, but said tourist services were "operating normally" in Bali.
Mr Howard said the US report "hasn't been brought to my attention, no. We had no warning of the specific attack that occurred. There have been general warnings about the deteriorating security position, the deteriorating terrorist position in Indonesia."
The official Australian death toll rose to 30 last night. A further 180 people remain missing and 113 Australians have been injured.
The Federal Government had airlifted 86 injured people from Bali by last night. Only seven patients remained in Darwin Hospital, with the rest sent on to other capital city hospitals.
Ten patients, two of them in a critical condition, were in Sydney hospitals. Fifteen critically injured people have been flown from Darwin to other major centres, two of whom had since died.
In Bali, police said yesterday they were "intensively questioning" two Indonesian men tracked down after one of their identity cards was found near the site of the bomb blasts.
The Washington Post report did not specify whether the communications were intercepted in Indonesia, where the Australian Defence Signals Directorate has primary responsibility for eavesdropping, or as part of the CIA's intelligence sweep across Asia and the Middle East.
Australian intelligence experts said the existence of the advice would suggest a huge breakdown in the international intelligence community before the Bali attack.
"It would be an unthinkable and unforgiveable failure of the intelligence network," said Warren Reed, a former head of the Indonesian desk of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service.
"If the Americans had this information, they would have passed it directly to us and others in the intelligence club."
The US ambassador to Australia, Tom Schieffer, said yesterday he was not familiar with the reported US intelligence.
But a US embassy spokesman in Canberra said there was no closer intelligence-sharing arrangement in the world than that between the US and Australia. "It's a hand-in-glove arrangement ... I don't think there's anything that hasn't been sent," he said.
Mr Howard defended Australia's consular warning to travellers to Indonesia and Bali as "strong" and "quite strong".
Two days before the attack, the US issued a worldwide warning notice again urging tourists to avoid "clubs, bars and restaurants" where Westerners congregate. The Australian Government did not issue a similar warning.
The Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, rejected any suggestion the Government could have done more to alert Australians to the threat of a bombing.
However, questions over the adequacy of the intelligence system before the bombing may be investigated by the Senate.
Greens Senator Bob Brown said he would support an inquiry if there was sufficient evidence of intelligence failings.
He said the best time to think about constituting an inquiry was in mid-November, when Parliament next sits. The Australian Democrats and Labor said it was too early to consider an inquiry but did not rule out their support.
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Post #57,270
10/16/02 11:30:35 PM
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Us notified Indonesia and Australia at many levels
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/10/16/bali.blast/index.html|http://www.cnn.com/2002/....blast/index.html] The U.S. warnings were made at a variety of levels, officials said, including during meetings between the U.S. ambassador and President Megawati Sukarnoputri. Sources said the threat information was also shared with the Australian government. Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #57,307
10/17/02 2:04:58 AM
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Re: That is now proving true - Oz PM in deep shit !!!
[link|http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/16/1034561213880.html|PM reverses earlier position re US warnings of Bali as target]
Unless John Howard does some unbelievable smart talking, this could be the biggest blow ever to his Prime Ministership........
The warning tourists never heard
By Tom Allard, Mark Riley and Marian Wilkinson
October 17 2002
The Prime Minister, John Howard, yesterday admitted that Australia received recent US intelligence identifying Bali as a possible target of a terrorist attack on Western tourists but had decided not to change its advice to Australian holidaymakers.
The revelation came a day after Mr Howard, along with other members of cabinet and the US ambassador to Australia, Tom Schieffer, said they had been unaware of any such intelligence.
Mr Howard told Parliament that Bali had been mentioned in recent intelligence reports as a site, along with other tourist locations across Indonesia, in which there was a risk of "possible terrorist activity against United States tourists".
"This intelligence was assessed by agencies and the view was formed by them that no alteration in the threat assessment level, then at a high, applying to Indonesia was warranted," he said.
The most recent Australian travel advice on Indonesia prior to the terrorist attack was on September 20, several days before the US intelligence mentioning Bali was disseminated.
The notice advised travellers that bombs had been exploded in Indonesia, including tourist areas, and that further explosions "may be attempted".
However, it also said, in bold type, that tourist services were "operating normally" in Bali.
Up to 20,000 Australians were on the island at the time of the bombing.
The US changed its travel notice twice after September 20 in response to threats identified by the CIA. It specifically warned its citizens to avoid bars, restaurants and tourist areas in Indonesia where Westerners gather.
The US warning urged Americans and Westerners to "avoid large gatherings known to cater primarily to Western clientele including certain bars, restaurants and tourist areas".
Mr Howard maintained yesterday that Australia's travel advice had been adequate and that there had been no intelligence that "specifically warned" of a bomb attack in Bali on October 12.
But the Greens Senator Bob Brown said the revelations meant a parliamentary inquiry into suspected intelligence failures ahead of the Bali massacre was now inevitable.
"There are serious concerns about the intelligence warnings or failure to warn," he said. "It is easy to be wise in hindsight but it's part of our role as parliamentarians to make sure that we do review the warnings or the failure of warnings before the Bali bomb blasts."
Labor and the Democrats have not ruled out supporting such an inquiry.
A former regimental intelligence officer with the Australian Army in East Timor, Andrew Plunkett, said the lack of a more specific warning based on the intelligence at hand constituted "another tragic intelligence failure" at a managerial level in the Department of Foreign Affairs.
"I've seen it happen where diligent intelligence officers pass on significant information on activity in Indonesia that is later hosed down and wordsmithed by careerist departmental officers for political purposes," he said.
"They water down the intelligence so as not to upset the Indonesians and because they place the narrow short-term business interests of Australian companies in Indonesia ahead of human security and our long-term national interest."
In admitting to a silent Parliament that his Government had received the US intelligence, Mr Howard also ordered a full review by the Inspector General of Intelligence and Security of all relevant material received by Australia's spy network on terrorist threats in Indonesia before the Bali bomb blast.
Australia elevated its official threat assessment of Indonesia following the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, but specifically excluded Bali from the warnings.
In Bali yesterday, no clear leads emerged in the investigation of the bomb blast despite a swirl of rumour and speculation about the detention of suspects. Australia has posted a $2million reward for the capture and successful prosecution of the terrorists.
The Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, and the Indonesian President, Megawati Soekarnoputri, agreed yesterday to formally establish a taskforce to investigate the attack, including Indonesian, Australian, British and American investigators.
Mr Howard told Parliament that 30 Australians had been confirmed dead and that the death toll would "rise considerably".
The Government is also considering a permanent memorial to the victims.
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Post #57,439
10/17/02 6:36:52 PM
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Don't feel too bad...
the US was warned by several other countries about the possibility of a terrorist attack regarding 9/11 also.
But according to the President - he didn't know that they'd fly planes into building.
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Post #57,096
10/15/02 10:19:11 PM
10/16/02 9:49:29 PM
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More details emerging - military C4 explosives cited
SCMP Wed 16th Oct
The following is extracted from several seperate items in today's paper
1) US sources are stating in reports it was 'an al-Qaeda car bomb'. US sources claim that same generic explosive was used in COLE attack in Yemen.
2) Local security people say the explosion was orchestrated to have maximum impact and in fact there were 4 actual explosions. Two small carry-bag bombs are understood to have gone off inside the two bars, this caused large numbers of people to rush outside where a later massive blast from explosives planted in the road or under the footpath, 'vapourized' some of the victims.The 4th explosion may have been a car bomb but it occured near the US consulate in Denpasar, some kilometers away. (### see my additional theories below marked ###)
3) There is a belief among some in Bali & Jakarta that rogue military elements [read Kopassus agents] may have arranged the blast for local (Indonesian) political reasons. This theory goes, that the military has been under attack politically since Suharto was ousted - by causing civil disorder & triggereing a blast that can be laid at the feet of Islamic terrorists, the Military will gain influence & power, also if the population become alarmed it will make it easier for a Military dictator (such as was Suharto) to take power. Local sources also say that the C4 explosive is a military explosive but was also used in several unexplained bomb blasts in Jakarta over the past three years.
4) The explosion was a well planned highly organized and expertly designed affair
5) The losers will be Indonesian govt who are now under intense US & Australian pressure to crack down on Islamic elements. The police are not able to do this so it will be up to the military. US & Australia will be satisfied as both those countries want to see any Islamic militancy squashed.
Abu Bakar's Jemaah Islamiah movement will almost certainly be outlawed. One other Indonesian Islamic group as already said they will voluntarily disband (analysts say they don't really know how militant groups can truly disband themselves).
************************
Also from todays International Herald Tribue (associated with NY Times & NY Post) have articles that ..
1) Are already stating it as accepted fact that it was an al-Qaeda car bomb [even though latest reports say it wasn't a car bomb at all]
2) That the explosion underscores what happens when a govt doesn't clamp down on Islamic militancy
3) That the Indonesian govt must now crackdown on all Islamic extremeists or the west (who control Indonesia's purse strings) will really being to squeeze the country's govt.
Cheers
Doug Marker
Update:>>>>
After a post by Arkadiy I have done some minor revision to the following text. Arkaidy quite rightly pointed out that one could interpret the remarks as 'no evidence will be acceptable'. That was not my intent - my original reference written way above above called the below additional 'theories'. So in order to clarify I am adding this line ...
"If I were a kopassus operative seeking to change the govt's stance on terrorism in Indonesia, I would try to do the following"
I share the belief of a number of western diplomats in Jakarta, that the perps of this particular attack, may have a local political motive not fully in-sync with al-Qaeda
DSM <<<<
### Additional theories (well these are my own thoughts) ...
The (alledged) two people who planted the small carrier bag bombs are likely to be Islamic dupes who may have known the bombs they had were to frighten or even kill a few people but had no idea that a massive blast would wipe out so many people scrambling from the first 'fire-cracker sounding' bombs they were asked to plant.
What they didn't know was who was really behind the blast (the real perps would tell the dupes they were part of a target Islamic group so that when these dupes get predictably caught they would blab what they believed to be true and thus be the smoking gun needed). The real perps would have made absolutely sure that the two dupes would be identified very quickly (unbelievably amazingly so) such as placing their id cards at the scene, or having other people who would step forward and swear they saw the 'dupes' place the initial small bombs.
That the guy who built the 'big' bomb - will be discovered very quickly (unbelievably and amazingly so) and will claim to be linked to the target Islamic groups much to their surprise and amazement (genuine) - again a dupe or, an Indonesian military agent willing to go through the trial but to be set free later.
That the smoking gun will thus be produced and the Indonesian govt will then be able to enact the crack-down laws they were not able to previously (else there will be a military coup in Indonesia).
Cheers & keep smiling (someone has to)
PS - latest word is that we are back to a car bomb built into the roof of a van. Also there are no end of comparisons of the C4 explosive having been used by every know branch of al-Qaeda (very little is said about how C4 has been used in Indonesian bombs many times over the past 3 years
Edited by dmarker2
Oct. 16, 2002, 07:42:52 AM EDT
Edited by dmarker2
Oct. 16, 2002, 08:16:01 AM EDT
Edited by dmarker2
Oct. 16, 2002, 10:12:37 AM EDT
Edited by dmarker2
Oct. 16, 2002, 09:49:29 PM EDT
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Post #57,145
10/16/02 10:55:24 AM
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Reality check
What would it take to convince you that US or Indonesian rogue military was not behind this blast? Apparently, confessions and successful arrests only make your case stronger.
We have only 2 things to worry about: That things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
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Post #57,243
10/16/02 8:00:47 PM
10/16/02 9:53:05 PM
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Re: Simple ...
An expert knowledge of how things happen in Indonesia,
The actual details that emerge, such did the caught perps belong to
al-Qaeda & for any length of time, how come their id cards were found at the site (a lynch-pin for suspicion)
&
one great big factor everyone wants to ignore a MOTIVE related to what the blast achived
DSM
(perhaps I should have added the line - this is how I would do the deed if I were Kopassus)
UPDATE>>>
Because your point is a fair one, I have updated the original text with a modification & a clarification ... thanks for the input - Doug
Edited by dmarker2
Oct. 16, 2002, 08:10:05 PM EDT
Edited by dmarker2
Oct. 16, 2002, 09:53:05 PM EDT
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Post #57,255
10/16/02 10:12:51 PM
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the guy that built the bomb was ex Indonesian airforce
who wont rat out who hired him (yet but in custody). A couple of jihadists had a second vehicle and 2 local non Balinese were the point people on this. The team was a large as eight. This could go anywhere from a willing jihadists working with the government everyone crossing each other with different motives. The gov operatives thought they were running the tangos and the tangos worked their own scheme. The truth will be muddy.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #57,273
10/16/02 11:39:02 PM
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Re: Built the bomb ?
Yes some stories say that there was an admission from a former senior Airforce Officer (Lietenant-Colonel) who had been discharged last year for improper conduct & who had been to the US 3 times for training on building explosive devices and who was currently living in Bali. But other stories say that local officials deny he has admitted building the bomb but lived near the scene & rushed there after the blast to see what had happened. Police are merely questioning him, he is not a suspect ???.
Hmmmmmmm (murkier & murkier)
Another item talks about questioning a group of Pakistanis Muslims who claim they were in Bali to convert Hindus !!! (what with, I wonder)
Yet another says that there were a group of 7 Indonesians (not from Bali) led by a Middle Eastern person. This story says that they drove up in two vans, stopped infront of the club blocking the traffic, boys in the back vehicle got out & into the front one then a few seconds later boom.
Yet another story says that witness told police they saw two men place carrier bags at each of the clubs (on either sides of the street) then run away. An Aussie witness said he thought he heard fireworks go off then a few seconds later the big boom.
Another HK witness says that he was in one club when they heard bangs which sent people rushing outside right into the big boom.
Doug M
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Post #57,280
10/16/02 11:50:24 PM
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Murkie to the max but lets wargame
Brunei is my target I want him in my back pocket
Indonesia needs to get on the terror bandwagon as it is a barely in control place with multiple civil wars going on and tangos are definately hiding out here as is everyone else. Great Place to disappear.
I show up as merchant having c4 for sale, the idea being find the right islamic party to buy it, micro manage him and tip off the locals before a huge bad image blast takes place. Tangos meet and greet, realize what I have in mind and pull a polite doublecross. I am standing there with my dick out looking stupid and a lot of innocent people are dead. To the tangos it is a plus as now they can go to brunei and say they tried to stop us, here is the pictures, your next unless we get some serious dollars because the saudi donations are down.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #57,313
10/17/02 4:39:41 AM
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Re: That is downright devious -- clever
I had not thought of the angle that has Tangos using attacks on tourists to damage an economy on the basis that if the govt don't anti-up, the mess will cost them 10 times more at min.
as an aside
Last weeks Newsweek had stories about Ruskies in Chenenya & what they were doing to the locals positively makes the Kopassus look like really nice clean polite murderous bastards by comparison. The descriptions of what the Ruskies do to people they interogate is worse that what I had read about any Kopassus.
Doug
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Post #57,296
10/17/02 12:21:16 AM
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Hold on
You described (again) what makes you suspicious. Fair enough. My question was: what does it take to disspell suspicions? What kind of _evidence_ would it take to convince you that al Quaeda was behind the explosion? I am not asking what evidence exists now that may convince you. I am asking about an ideal, not (yet?) existing evidence. For example, bin Laden on video talking how he had the most optimistic damage estimates, and how the results exceeded his expectations. Would that convince you? What else could do the trick?
We have only 2 things to worry about: That things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
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Post #57,297
10/17/02 12:31:40 AM
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What would constitute proof hmm
if I aknowledge the latest Hammas attacks against Israel am I the only responsible party? If a gangland killer in NJYC is killed and I swear that it is my doing or maybe I declare to "own" what helps me. Like the repocrats who declare the economy is to "their" doing
The history of the area is murky to the extreme.
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #57,298
10/17/02 12:47:42 AM
10/17/02 12:49:10 AM
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That is exactly the problem
How can we convince somebody it's not US fault, given how murky the water is? So I start the discussion by asking: what would be an acceptable proof?
We have only 2 things to worry about: That things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
Edited by Arkadiy
Oct. 17, 2002, 12:49:10 AM EDT
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Post #57,305
10/17/02 2:00:19 AM
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Re: The best proof is ???
A smoking gun +
a MOTIVE that realistically relates to the effect the deed achieved.
As Bill & I keep implying - even a smoking gun needs to be put under the microscope & the 'investgators' need to have our confidence that they made available *all* the evidence.
Other than that of course if Bin Laden or Bashir step forward and say 'we done it' then what else can we do but accept the evidence.
Anyone who accepts evidence of a bomb blast in Indonesia without critical examination & lots of caution, would be either, the perp, god (allah), or someone who is naive.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #57,352
10/17/02 12:17:19 PM
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Similar event in the Philippines
[link|http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=126&art_id=ct20021017114943231P450464&set_id=1|Link.] Three people were instantly killed when the first explosion hit the Shop-O-Rama department store. Minutes later, two others were killed when a second bomb went off at a nearby store, police said. Looks like the same script. Alex
"I have a truly marvelous demonstration of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain. -- Pierre de Fermat (1601-1665)
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