Yeah, I still don't get that. The French are not in a Union with Turkey, and didn't elect Erdogan.

Post #439,227 by CRConrad 6/5/21 4:39:33 PM 6/5/21 4:39:33 PM Reply	Yeah, I still don't get that. The French are not in a Union with Turkey, and didn't elect Erdogan.
Post #439,230 by pwhysall 6/6/21 12:45:31 AM 6/6/21 12:45:31 AM Reply	The EU and the US are not (yet) analogous
Post #439,234 by malraux 6/6/21 4:39:21 PM 6/6/21 4:39:21 PM Reply	Ah, thought they had been ratified. Hungary then. Are you in Finland responsible for Orban and Fidesz, with their anti-Muslim stance? How about Poland and the anti-LGBT zones? Slovenia and journalist crackdowns too. Are you personally responsible for the opinions and actions of those countries? Seems pretty analogous to me: EU member states have to follow EU laws, but each member state has its own constitution and government. Same thing here, we've just got more of them. The main difference is that the US doesn't have a mechanism to let states leave on their own, primarily because the US was incorporated that way and states generally weren't countries before they joined the union. Texas, however, was its own country before joining the US. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #439,237 by scoenye 6/6/21 11:18:12 PM 6/6/21 11:18:12 PM Reply	Don't forget the Vermont Republic ;-)
Post #439,238 by pwhysall 6/7/21 2:01:09 AM 6/7/21 2:01:09 AM Reply	EU Law is really quite optional Worked example: all the stuff the UK just opted the fuck out of Also, the US is a nation-state that devolves a lot of legislative ability down to the constituent states. The EU is more of a club with a shitload of rules, which, if you don't like them, you can just leave. The most notable defining characteristic here is that the US can declare war on another nation, whilst the EU cannot. There are some more woolly differences, like the lack of a standard language, or power socket, or overarching shared identity.
Post #439,240 by malraux 6/7/21 9:25:16 AM 6/7/21 9:25:16 AM Reply	As I said, the US has no mechanism for states to leave on their own The main difference is that and the war thing (which isn't much of an issue given NATO). The EU is still young, and I imagine there were more similarities to back when the US was formed. Give it a few hundred years and the EU could be in a similar position. Other similarities: the EU participates in treaties, and there's freedom of travel, occupation, and living arrangements - as that worked example of yours is discovering. Also, it's that devolving of legislative ability that's key here. There's really fuck-all I can do to affect what goes on in Texas, and I feel a lot more sympatico with the foreign country across the river from me than I do with the Republic of Texas. So, perfect analogy? No, of course not. But it's nowhere near as cut and dried as CRC would have us believe. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #439,243 by CRConrad 6/7/21 11:21:10 AM 6/7/21 11:21:10 AM Reply	Yeah, so get back to us with your as-of-now-false equivalence in a couple hundred years.
Post #439,242 by CRConrad 6/7/21 11:19:34 AM 6/7/21 11:19:34 AM Reply	You've got your levels mixed up. The people here in Helsinki are, as a nation state, "responsible" for their compatriots in Lapland, and vice versa. That's the corresponding level to the nation state USA. I wasn't holding you responsible for what happens in your fellow NAFTA countries, was I? And Turkey "ratified" -- presumably, as an EU member?!? AFAIK, they haven't even put in an official membership application. There were preliminary talks, around and probably shortly after the turn of the century, that they were going to. But, I don't know if you've noticed, they've since regressed to become more of a typical Middle-Eastern semi-theocratic dictatorship, and even they themselves have the nous to figure out that given this there's no use even applying. -- Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Apparently Still Knows Fucking Everything Mail: Same username as at the top left of this post, at iki.fi
Post #439,245 by a6l6e6x 6/7/21 9:05:29 PM 6/7/21 9:05:29 PM Reply	Well, I have noticed the regression of Turkey. It's now a theocratic government. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #439,248 by boxley 6/8/21 2:16:39 PM 6/8/21 2:16:39 PM Reply	from the news reports it is now a thugocracy as opposed to a theocracy if the reports of criminal access to the top of the government is to be believed "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #439,249 by CRConrad 6/9/21 5:50:23 AM 6/9/21 5:50:23 AM Reply	I'm with BOx, except one small edit: A thugocracy albeit (rather flimsily) disguised as theocracy.
Post #439,250 by drook 6/9/21 9:17:56 AM 6/9/21 9:17:56 AM Reply	Hasn't that been true of most of them? -- Drew
Post #439,253 by Another Scott 6/9/21 12:29:13 PM 6/9/21 12:29:13 PM Reply	Whenever Turkey is in the news, it's always worse than we thought. Reuters (from 5/20): A gang leader's video allegations of corruption among top officials has gripped millions of Turks, threatening to tarnish the image of a government already struggling with economic woes and the COVID-19 outbreak. Convicted criminal gang leader Sedat Peker, who has a large following on social media, on Thursday released the sixth of a series of videos on YouTube which have evolved into a bitter dispute with Interior Minister Suleyman Soylu. "Clean Suleyman, lion Suleyman. He sent a tweet about me calling me 'dirty mafia'... I will tell you today about 'clean Suleyman'," Peker said in one of the videos, before launching into his accusations. Peker has served several jail sentences in Turkey and said last week he is now in Dubai. In often rambling monologues addressed to the camera from behind a desk, Peker has made uncorroborated allegations regarding suspicious deaths, rape and drug dealing, alleging links to officials close to President Tayyip Erdogan. The six videos have been viewed as many as 30 million times in total. As I commented elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised if Erdogan tries to arrest everyone who has viewed the videos... :-/ Cheers, Scott.
Post #439,259 by a6l6e6x 6/9/21 11:08:00 PM 6/9/21 11:08:00 PM Reply	Re: You have a point. :) They are only claiming a theocratic orientation. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov

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