FDL speculation isn't evidence.

Post #379,254 by Another Scott 8/14/13 10:19:29 AM Reply	FDL speculation isn't evidence. FDL was trying to lead the people who wanted a public option in the PPACA, then went off the rails and teamed up with Grover to try to kill it. http://www.youtube.c...tch?v=fpAyan1fXCE (0:54) (Please don't bring up other topics where Obama has changed his position - it's not germane to this topic.) There's a big difference in trying to craft legislation to get enough votes to pass, and vetoing legislation that has already passed. People like Hamsher and others at FDL never got that. I guess you haven't either. http://en.wikipedia....e_Care_Act#Senate On December 23, the Senate voted 60Â39 to end debate on the bill (a cloture vote to end the filibuster by opponents). The bill then passed by a vote of 60Â39 on December 24, 2009, with all Democrats and two independents voting for, and all Republicans voting against except one (Jim Bunning (R-KY), not voting).[217] Obama got all he could at the time. Medicare for All would not have passed. But we've been through this multiple times... HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,258 by mmoffitt 8/14/13 10:35:48 AM Reply	Here's our difference. The ACA accomplishes almost nothing. From strictly a pragmatic POV, if the ACA was "the best he could do" then he shouldn't have spent any political capital on it. It doesn't make anything better. The "pre-existing" thing? Hell, almost all insurers had dropped pre-existing clauses by 2000. The "cover your kids until they're 26" was similarly a fait accompli. The ACA does nothing to apply downward pressure on insurance prices. The microscopic "good" the ACA does came a far too high a cost: at USSC sanctioned law that says Americans must pay private, for-profit corporations solely on account of their being alive. That's Neo-Fascist at best. The BL: You think the marginal good the ACA accomplished was worth the effort. My experience working in medical labs, hospitals and private health insurance companies have taught me otherwise.
Post #379,261 by Another Scott 8/14/13 10:39:22 AM Reply	Expect your unicorn any day now. I'm sure it'll be great.
Post #379,263 by mmoffitt 8/14/13 10:40:47 AM Reply	Not looking for one. We're cooked. It's over. I'm still in ammunition acquisition mode. ;0)
Post #379,266 by Another Scott 8/14/13 10:44:14 AM Reply	Enjoy your bunker then. :-/
Post #379,310 by Ashton 8/15/13 5:23:32 AM Reply	SImply: you Can't get There.. from Here, IMO. It would be necessary to reverse the Winner-takes-all mentality behind virtually all financial/mercantile transactions. [And votes! ... in another sense.] to alter greatly the concept of 'Incorporation' in Murica, with even more-stringent checks/balances on any multi-nationals (ours or theirs.) 'People'?. My ass. to alter taxation: based on Wealth (at least as a factor) and not merely the easily-massaged fiction of 'annual income'. (It would be nice.. if.. the USSC all dined together to celebrate something, and the fish was rilly-bad (while throwing in a Unicorn, too.)) It would be essential (and will be--increasingly as the planet races towards a lethal environment) that the purloined $Trillions already extracted by compounded System-gamimg: be recaptured significantly, not merely to take the Fat out of our entire Med/Pharmchem Industrial Cartels, (including the expectations of MDs et al) .. but to Seriously prepare for [any future at all] worth a pitcher of warm spit.. by, say 2060. You couldn't alter these koans unless Murica suddenly yearned to become as civilized as.. the other wealthy countries. It would be a basic Revolution, bloody as usual though not inescapably: depending entirely upon how quickly a plurality of the population Could -???- grow. up. I can't imagine Euro-style Med funding with any of these elements unsettled. Single-Payer is a chimera in a country as historically ignorant, gullible and superstitious --and as physically deteriorated (as so many Muricans Are today) and worse.. as mentally deranged. Just look around at Our Performance on. all. scales. ... qed (And.. we'll never Know: to what extent (re Obama's 'deal' with the $$Overlords) he was out-schemed? OR [more likely, I wot] flat out-Gunned. $$$==Power==purchased votes.. The Fascistic streak, now so increasingly evident in the bloviations of the loudest minorities (collectively already a plurality?) will confound any political action in the direction of any parts of the above. So, Yes: we're fucked. Unless and Until: some Very-fucking-Unusual Event galvanizes authentic epiphanies ... amongst millions. [!!111ONE!11] Hey, I don't recall ever suggesting that the odds FOR our 'survival' were very good, all insanities considered; I suggested many times that, simply: we still have this teensy-Chance. (Oh.. And: I quite admire Scott's equanimity in the face of soo Many systems clearly in extremis; perhaps he sees the glass only 70% empty?) But I, having been near-enough sentient during both assassinations--especially the Crucial RFK-elimination--and having 'plotted' the slope of the curve ever-since: do not believe in religio-miracles as would be Required: ever to counter the miserable stats-to-date of our deservedly crumbling, sanctimonious tribe of (self-deluding) crass narcissists. (I regret that I have but one-life (not to give) for-my-country, wrong, or Wrong.)
Post #379,313 by mmoffitt 8/15/13 8:26:39 AM Reply	Largely concur. About a revolution being necessary (hence my semi-jocular allusion to "ammunition acquisition mode"), that is. I think in a different century and in a different country, Scott and I would be arguing over whether or not the Duma would save us.
Post #379,318 by Another Scott 8/15/13 9:20:14 AM Reply	There will always be things to argue about. ;-)
Post #380,301 by Another Scott 9/5/13 3:21:37 PM Reply	The "pre-existing" thing is still an issue. http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4602112 47. Comrade Dread says: September 5, 2013 at 2:28 pm When my wife lost her job, we had two choices, add her to my companyÂs HMO plan or try to buy her individual PPO insurance. Due to her pre-existing conditions which sheÂs had since childhood, no insurance company would take her. After six months (where, by the grace of God, she remained in good health) we signed her up for our state PCIP at just $220 a month. Our state just joined the Federal PCIP plan and our monthly rates for her fell to $161 a month. If Bush and the culmination of 30 years of Republican economic policies hadnÂt already turned me from a conservative to a bleeding heart liberal, Obamacare and the Republican response to it would have assured that I would never have cast another ballot for a Republican again. There is such a thing to be said about being part of a community that takes care of one another and not simply an isolated sheep to be fleeced by the wolves of corporate capitalism. (Also, I will follow the trend and pimp my blog. I discuss religion, movies, nerd stuff, politics, and food. Click my name if you want to check it out.) HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #380,305 by mmoffitt 9/5/13 3:48:33 PM Reply	I'm sure in pockets it is still a problem. But not for most. And it didn't take the ACA to make it that way. And since you're a supporter of the ACA, isn't satisfying the needs of "most" good enough? ;0)
Post #380,331 by jake123 9/6/13 11:09:01 AM Reply	A brilliant example of the perfect being the enemy of the good. The ACA is better than what came before. Why shit on people for supporting something that's not ideal but better than what came before? Then start working on the next iteration of Something Better Than What Came Before.
Post #380,338 by mmoffitt 9/6/13 1:16:09 PM Reply	I'm unconvinced the ACA is better than what was. Or even significantly different from what came before. With one exception: it is now the unassailable law of the land that Americans are born owing private corporations a profit. Whatever arguable good the ACA does, it is vastly overwhelmed by that simple fact. Obama had 2/3rds of the People behind him, his political party had a super-majority in the Senate and enough support in the House to at least pass a bill with an option for Single Payer. He fought that option tooth-and-nail from the very first hearings on health care reform. It was the White House who would not let Nader speak in those hearings and it was the White House who would not let even the President of the American Medical Association testify at those hearings because they were in favor of Single Payer, and Obama (the "Change We Can Believe In" President) was opposed to Single Payer above all else. Others can let him off the hook for that in their ceaseless apologizing of the President and his policies, but I'll not join their ranks.
Post #380,341 by jake123 9/6/13 2:29:51 PM Reply	50 million people that couldn't get coverage now can That's an improvement.
Post #380,343 by boxley 9/6/13 2:39:24 PM Reply	Re: 50 million people that couldn't get coverage now can if they can afford it Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #380,345 by Another Scott 9/6/13 4:19:39 PM Reply	Guess who said this... "It is a good day for 30 million uninsured Americans who will have access to healthcare. It is a good day for seniors who will continue to see their prescription drug costs go down as the so-called doughnut hole goes away. It is a good day for small businesses who simply cannot continue to afford the escalating costs of providing insurance for their employees. It is a good day for 20 million Americans who will soon be able to find access to community health centers. "It is an especially good day for the state of Vermont, which stands to receive hundreds of millions of dollars in additional federal funds to help our state achieve universal health care. "In my view, while the Affordable Care Act is an important step in the right direction and I am glad that the Supreme Court upheld it, [...] No fair peaking at the URL. ;-) http://www.sanders.s...97CA-18865C0EB0C3 Cheers, Scott.
Post #380,362 by Ashton 9/7/13 12:33:57 AM Reply	As from the get-go: S i n g l e - P a y e r is the Only Sane OPTION--to millions of people demonstrably smarter-than the Σ-vox-populi of the U.S. But FIRST--as Always--we must 'try' all the self-serving, crass-conceived Alternatives-to-SANE. Because: That is what made Murica what It Is today. [Fill-in _____ ] GOOO --> Bernie!
Post #380,382 by boxley 9/7/13 3:36:52 PM Reply	St Raygun? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #380,383 by CRConrad 9/7/13 4:37:34 PM Reply	Guessing from the URL you weren't supposed to peek at... ...somebody named Sanders, probably in the Senate. Isn't there a Bernie Sanders in American politics? -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #380,386 by Another Scott 9/7/13 6:21:26 PM Reply	Hush! ;-)
Post #380,406 by mmoffitt 9/8/13 4:06:21 PM Reply	Yeah, a champion of Single Payer in Vermont.
Post #380,407 by Another Scott 9/8/13 4:11:39 PM Reply	And yet he supported the PPACA. Imagine that.
Post #380,409 by mmoffitt 9/8/13 5:31:35 PM Reply	He's a sixteenth of a loaf fan. For everybody else, that is. ;0) No, I like Bernie, but he used the ACA in order to get Single Payer in his state. He also switched his political affiliation from Socialist to Independent a few years back. So, he's a pragmatist. He knows that folks like the Obama Administration and his fellow career politicians are beholding to large corporations and he does the best he can by his constituents. In this case, he got the brass ring for Vermont: a single payer health plan.
Post #379,267 by mmoffitt 8/14/13 10:47:23 AM Reply	Evidence has a habit of disappearing from the tubes. You didn't click any of the links in the article I posted did you? Well, try this one: http://news.firedogl...ve-to-be-unified/ Then click the link for the White House Official Transcript the article references. Know what you'll get? 404. Have a nice day.
Post #379,269 by Another Scott 8/14/13 10:51:42 AM Reply	Archive.org is your friend. http://web.archive.o...allroom-10/20/09/ You've again missed my point. Try again. ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,280 by mmoffitt 8/14/13 3:23:20 PM Reply	Re: Archive.org is your friend. First, thanks for linky. The President's response was, essentially, "I know what you want. I know you want real reform. I know you want everybody covered. I know you want real change. But you're not going to get it. See, I made a deal with all the privateers of the existing healthcare delivery system and you're not going to screw it up. So, suck it up and take what I hand you." AUDIENCE MEMBER: Single payer! AUDIENCE MEMBER: Public option! THE PRESIDENT: Let me say this, because somebody just brought up something. (Laughter.) Among Democrats and progressives there are a whole set of views about how we should do health care. But understand that the bill you least like in Congress right now, the one you least like of the five that are out there would provide 29 million Americans health care -- 29 million Americans who don't have it right now would get it. Would that be counting the people who would have gotten it, but won't because their hours are being cut back to insure they aren't eligible? So, was he speaking naively or did he know he was slinging B.S.? If he really wanted those people covered sans profits for his Wall Street buddies, he'd have been a strong advocate for Single Payer, no? The bill you least like would prevent insurance companies from barring you from getting health insurance because of preexisting conditions. (Applause.) Um, no. Actually for the overwhelming majority the existing healthcare plan policies themselves bar non-issuance for pre-existing conditions. Mind there is no cap for policy premiums - JUST AS THERE IS NONE IN THE ACA. So, swing and a miss again. Whatever the bill you least like would set up an exchange so that people right now who are having to try to bargain for health insurance on their own are suddenly part of a pool of millions that forces insurance companies to compete for their business and give them better deals and lower rates. Um, not Ed Zachary. A lot of states are not building these exchanges. And of those that do, there is no upper bound for health insurance premiums. So there are going to be some disagreements and details to work out. Um, yeah. Like a COMPLETE Do-Over. Was that your point? :0)
Post #379,285 by Another Scott 8/14/13 3:52:11 PM Reply	No time to address everything. But you're wrong about several of your points. Mind there is no cap for policy premiums - JUST AS THERE IS NONE IN THE ACA. http://www.towerswat...yers-health-plans The PPACA also tries to make premiums more affordable to enrollees in exchanges. Individuals with family incomes between 100% and 400% of the poverty level will be eligible for sliding-scale tax credits that cap the premium for a silver plan at 2% to 9.5% of family income.4 Those with incomes between 100% and 250% of the poverty level are also eligible for cost-sharing subsidies that raise the actuarial value of a silver plan to 73% to 94%, depending on income. At all income levels, the premium for the most expensive age group is limited to three times the premium for the least expensive age group within a given plan, which will likely reduce premiums for older people.5 Premiums may not vary by personal claims history or health status. Read the rest for more of the details. There are many cost-containment features in the PPACA and there's no reason to think they won't work - http://kff.org/healt...ealth-spending-2/ Changes coming under the ACA could also affect these trends significantly. Increases in coverage will induce a modest, one-time bump of a couple percent in spending as people who were previously uninsured get insurance and better access to health services. This will likely coincide with an expected economic recovery, so higher growth rates in health spending due to that recovery should not be attributed to the ACA simply because of the coincidental timing. On the other side of the ledger, the bulk of the Medicare savings included in the ACA Â primarily achieved through smaller increases in payments to providers Â have yet to be realized and will lower the future growth in spending in that program. Changes in the delivery system Â through accountable care organizations (ACOs) and bundled payments to providers Â may also yield results and help to keep ÂexcessÂ health costs down in public programs, as well as in private insurance. In addition, the ACAÂs tax on high cost, ÂCadillacÂ employer-sponsored health plans, scheduled to take effect in 2018, is expected to trim the cost of benefits and could lead to lower overall health spending as well. Yeah, it's possible to get insurance with pre-existing conditions. But how many people didn't because they couldn't afford it, didn't want to start a business, didn't qualify for Medicaid, etc., etc. http://www.webmd.com...ve-health-problem The Federal government will build exchanges for states that don't. https://www.healthca...ce/#state=indiana Health Insurance Marketplace in Indiana If you live in Indiana, youÂll use this website, HealthCare.gov, to apply for coverage, compare plans, and enroll. You can apply as early as October 1, 2013. Learn more about the Marketplace and how you can get ready. 48 days! Don't be late!!!11 FWIW. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,286 by mmoffitt 8/14/13 4:16:43 PM Reply	No time. Will be back tomorrow. Same Bat Channel, ... ;0)
Post #379,340 by mmoffitt 8/15/13 11:36:01 AM Reply	Okay, I'll revise. For anyone in the US making more that $46,000/year, there is no downward pressure on insurance premiums (http://aspe.hhs.gov/...ty.cfm#thresholds). And, gee, what a great deal for somebody making $45,000/year: the most they can pay a Wall Street traded, private health insurer is $4,275/year (of which up to 20% will never be spent on the delivery of healthcare). What a sweetheart of a deal! No wonder you support it! And in the face of everybody's health insurance premiums soaring, too.

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