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New Re: I know you do.
>>You keep refering to >YOU<.
>>That >YOU< were ready.
>>That >YOU< would not be >>traumatized.
>>It's always about >YOU<.

I've talked about my own situation
I've asked the group for their own stories (and they are appearing...if you would read)
I've mentioned other countries.
I've mentioned other states.
I've mentioned articles where leading researchers are asking similar questions.

Seems like you are wrong to me. <shrug>

>>And getting MORE OPINIONS is not substantiating it.
This is one of the oddest things you have ever said.
I'm suggesting that we ask 1000 men from our group
whether they think they would have wanted to....
and whether they think it would have been harmful.
You're saying that you are going to override what they say....
because........you know better?
-- William Shatner's Trousers --
New Bzzzztttt! Thanks for playing.
You quote me:
>>You keep refering to >YOU<.
>>That >YOU< were ready.
>>That >YOU< would not be >>traumatized.
>>It's always about >YOU<.


Then you say:
I've talked about my own situation
Yes. That is what I said in the part that you quoted.

I said you were talking about you. >YOU< were talking about >YOU<.

Did you miss where I said that?

I've mentioned other countries.
Yes you did. And I explained why what happens in other countries is not relevant. That was the whole point of the "okay" vs "legal" bit that took so long to hammer through your head. (and it seems as if it STILL hasn't gotten through).

I've mentioned other states.
Yes you did. See my reply to the preceeding quote. "okay" vs "legal".

I've mentioned articles where leading researchers are asking similar questions.
And now you retreat to outright LIES.

Go ahead, POST THE NAME of any of the "leading researchers" who are "asking similar questions".

Since you've "mentioned articles" by them, you should NOT have a problem doing that, should you?

Seems like you are wrong to me. <shrug>
Whatever. We'll see when you can post any NAMES from those "leading researchers".

And because I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO TRY IT......

Posting the name of someone who says that other, un-named, people are asking such questions is NOT posting the name of someone who is asking such questions.

Go ahead. Prove me wrong.
New No problem dude :-)
>>And now you retreat to outright LIES.
>>Go ahead, POST THE NAME of any of the "leading researchers" who are "asking >>similar questions".
David Finkelhor, University of New Hampshire
Floyd M. Martinson, Professor of Sociology Gustavus Adolphus College in Minnesota

>>And I explained why what happens in other countries is not relevant.
How can it not be relevant if that's where my encounter as a 15 year old would
have occurred?
-- William Shatner's Trousers --
New More lies from you?
David Finkelhor, University of New Hampshire
Hmmm, you know, I just can't seem to find a quote from him saying that.

Not that this proves that he didn't say that.

Just that there's no evidence that he said that.

Floyd M. Martinson, Professor of Sociology Gustavus Adolphus College in Minnesota
Again, the statements you seem to believe he said just don't seem to be available anywhere.

Again, this is not prooof that he didn't say those things. Just that they cannot be found anywhere.

>>And I explained why what happens in other countries is not relevant.
How can it not be relevant if that's where my encounter as a 15 year old would have occurred?
Are you REALLY that STUPID? Or is this some idiotic ploy on your part to waste my time?

Okay, let me put it to you in VERY SIMPLE TERMS.

At one time, slavery was LEGAL in the US.

Did that make it "okay"?

You see, "legal" != "okay" in all circumstances.

You may remember that I have REPEATEDLY pointed out to you that I'm NOT asking if it is "legal".

But that is where you KEEP RUNNING BACK TO.

So, until you can demonstrate that you understand the difference between "okay" and "legal", this conversation is at an end.

And is should be VERY easy as I have just given you the CLASSIC example of "legal" != "okay".
New Re: More lies from you?
>>Hmmm, you know, I just can't seem to find a quote from him saying that.
>>Not that this proves that he didn't say that.
Your ignorance about him (and possibly how to use a search engine) is your
failing not mine. You should fight your ignorance. Go to Amazon.com and buy their books or go to the library and borrow them.

>>Again, this is not prooof that he didn't say those things. Just that they >>cannot be found anywhere.
Though it IS good evidence that you don't wish to look very hard.
Didn't I already tell you that it aint all on the web?

>>Are you REALLY that STUPID? Or is this some idiotic ploy on your part to
>>waste my time? Okay, let me put it to you in VERY SIMPLE TERMS.
>>At one time, slavery was LEGAL in the US.
>>Did that make it "okay"?
>>You see, "legal" != "okay" in all circumstances.
Why do you keep bringing up legal? I think if we want to talk about hypothetical
events we should be clear about the contexts in which those events would have occurred. Of the context, the legal aspect is just a part. This much you have
said yourself. If you don't understand this....I will be happy to provide some
references ....... but first I want you to dare me to.

-- William Shatner's Trousers --
New Well, THAT is a lie if ever I saw one.
Mike:
Why do you keep bringing up legal?
He doesn't; it's YOU who've introduced that time after time when he asked you if it was "Okay".

And since David Finkelhor obviously didn't say, in the piece you cited -- and that's what counts here, not what you *claim* "is available" in some library or somewhere -- what you apparently thought (judging from the fact that at first you claimed *that* was where he said it) he said, mr Reading Comprehension, I wouldn't try to paint Brandioch with the "ignorance" brush if I were you.

So, Lying: Yes, Brandi is right, Mike did/does lie;

Ignorance: No, Mike is wrong, it isn't Brandioch who's ignorant here.

Bravo, Mikey, you're two for two! Wanna try for three out of three?
   Christian R. Conrad
Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower.
-- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764|Andrew Grygus]
New Christian, let's table this for now.
#1. It has been established that Mike does NOT provide support for his "facts".

#2. I am not going to waste my time digging through EVERYTHING ever written or said by Finkelhor to prove that he DID NOT say what Mike claims he said (without providing references). I'm sure everyone else here understands the futility of attempting to prove a negative.

#3. I'm not even going to discuss/debate with someone who hasn't advanced to the point of being able to tell "okay" from "legal".

#4. Not to mention the futility of discussion/debate with someone who doesn't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion".

#5. Yes, I do believe that Mike lies. Why discuss/debate with someone who lies?

Like I said before, I'm out of this until he can prove to me that he's advanced enough to tell "okay" from "legal". I've provided him with the classic text-book example of slavery. There's really nothing more that can be done at this point.
New You both should fucking ashamed of yourselves
Intelligent debate indeed.
Mr and Mrs "We couldn't find much under yahoo so it's not relevant
and we're going to call you liar liar pants on fire".

I don't know how you can look yourself in the mirror.
This isn't debate its fucking nonsense.
1) Give someone an ultimatum that they can't name ONE name.
2) Get supplied with two.
3) Challenge the legitimacy of the name based on the fact that you
didn't find anything. Avoid soliciting more information on the names
from the supplier. Quickly move to a summary position.

This isn't debate its a fucking clown show.

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=37690|
Response]

-- William Shatner's Trousers --
     Has the world gone crazy? - (Mike) - (115)
         Lollita? - (Brandioch) - (85)
             But "having a crush" != "having sex". - (CRConrad) - (70)
                 So... - (imric) - (65)
                     Yeah, but what's the age of *informed* "consent"...? - (CRConrad) - (64)
                         I do claim so. - (imric) - (63)
                             I *can't fucking BELIEVE* you really mean that! - (CRConrad) - (6)
                                 ~(bad=traumatic) - (imric) - (5)
                                     Drop the other side of the implication - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                         *chuckle* True.. -NT - (imric)
                                         Excellent -NT - (Mike)
                                     My bad - used sloppy modern , "traumatic = bad", definition. -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                         Heh - s'alright - certainly understandable. -NT - (imric)
                             I'd have to push "society" or "culture" at that point. - (Brandioch) - (46)
                                 Good point .....a reply and some thoughts - (Mike) - (45)
                                     A simple solution. - (Brandioch) - (42)
                                         Just say no - yeah right! - (Mike) - (41)
                                             Maybe we are agreeing that, the 'problem' is as much - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                 Good thoughts - (Mike) - (3)
                                                     Will choose aquatic ceremony over - purchased legislators. -NT - (Ashton)
                                                     OK, I'll take your bait - clarify, please. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                         Re: OK, I'll take your bait - clarify, please. - (Mike)
                                             Just say "prosecute". - (Brandioch) - (32)
                                                 Please start your own thread using words fuck and children - (Mike) - (31)
                                                     What the fuck? - (Brandioch) - (29)
                                                         As always ..... - (Mike) - (28)
                                                             As always, people think *their* experience = How it IS. - (CRConrad) - (27)
                                                                 Huzzzaaaa! Huzzzaaa! Huzzzaaa! - (Brandioch)
                                                                 From my first post. - (Mike) - (25)
                                                                     Link. - (Another Scott) - (24)
                                                                         Thanks - (Mike) - (22)
                                                                             I think I see a thread there. - (Brandioch) - (21)
                                                                                 Your inability to understand and comprehend ........ - (Mike) - (20)
                                                                                     Just establishing your position. - (Brandioch) - (19)
                                                                                         I see - (Mike) - (18)
                                                                                             I quoted you quoting something that "Another Scott" quoted. - (Brandioch) - (17)
                                                                                                 And a quote is errrm....leading..to errrm....yeah.... - (Mike) - (1)
                                                                                                     It's called "reading with comprehension". - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                 Look.... - (Mike) - (14)
                                                                                                     I see a bunny! - (Brandioch) - (10)
                                                                                                         Love you xoxo - (Mike) - (9)
                                                                                                             I know you do. - (Brandioch) - (8)
                                                                                                                 Re: I know you do. - (Mike) - (7)
                                                                                                                     Bzzzztttt! Thanks for playing. - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                                                                                         No problem dude :-) - (Mike) - (5)
                                                                                                                             More lies from you? - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                                                                 Re: More lies from you? - (Mike) - (3)
                                                                                                                                     Well, THAT is a lie if ever I saw one. - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                                                                                         Christian, let's table this for now. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                                                                             You both should fucking ashamed of yourselves - (Mike)
                                                                                                     Maybe the question is not resolvable - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                                                         Until there is a verifiable maturity test. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                         Liked the gist - (Mike)
                                                                         Lots of loaded didactic opinion in that.______ Don't buy it. - (Ashton)
                                                     Who died and made YOU King of thread definitions, punk??? -NT - (CRConrad)
                                             Hmm -NT - (Mike)
                                             Sometimes, an "Alexander's Chop" is the *only* way. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                 Can it be any clearer? - (Brandioch)
                                     Good idea in many ways - the problem will be... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                         Hmmmm, there's a thought. - (Brandioch)
                             There's a difference between physically / emotionally ready. - (Another Scott) - (8)
                                 *sigh* - (imric) - (7)
                                     But what does "consent" mean with a 12-14 yr old? -NT - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                         What does that have to do with trauma? - (imric) - (5)
                                             Actual source of 'trauma' IMhO: - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                 30 yr old hymen intactum? Cant stand it gotta comment - (boxley)
                                             I was addressing a different issue. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                 Hmm. - (imric) - (1)
                                                     Yes - (Mike)
                 Whoa there, cowboy! - (Brandioch) - (3)
                     I'll assume you're using me as a rhetorical punch-bag... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                         That be the case. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                             I remember BC law being surprisingly reasonable - (ben_tilly)
             Random example - (ben_tilly) - (13)
                 Trouble-maker..___________________________:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton)
                 Just found this... - (imric) - (6)
                     Talk about yer 'adult reponse' - - (Ashton) - (5)
                         Re: Talk about yer 'adult reponse' - - (inthane-chan)
                         What we teach boys - (boxley) - (3)
                             Perhaps the legal overreaction you cite - (Ashton) - (2)
                                 When one teaches, teach for effect - (boxley) - (1)
                                     Sounds like a winner to me. Lucky boys! -NT - (Ashton)
                 Capitlism at its finest. - (Silverlock) - (4)
                     Re: Capitlism at its finest. - (Mike) - (2)
                         Re: Capitlism at its finest. - (Mike) - (1)
                             Then I have done my job well. - (Silverlock)
                     But will she be a harsh mistress___this time too? -NT - (Ashton)
         Read this - (Mike) - (21)
             So a 16 year old boy and 30 year old guy is "okay"? - (Brandioch) - (20)
                 Wrong again - but I still love you - (Mike) - (19)
                     Very interesting. - (Brandioch) - (18)
                         Define "okay" - (Mike) - (17)
                             "okay" == "do you see any problems with it". - (Brandioch) - (16)
                                 Yes I see problems with it. See earlier posts. -NT - (Mike) - (15)
                                     Allow me to quote you. - (Brandioch) - (14)
                                         Are they gonna get harder? - (Mike) - (10)
                                             How much EASIER can it be? - (Brandioch) - (9)
                                                 Here's the curious thing...... - (Mike) - (8)
                                                     Well, it's time to wrap this up. - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                         You are too precious - (Mike) - (6)
                                                             The state of education today...... - (Brandioch) - (5)
                                                                 Jane you ignorant slut - (Mike) - (4)
                                                                     You, OTOH, are not an "ignorant slut"... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                         He aint doc - (boxley)
                                                                         LOL.....hey snot brain..... - (Mike)
                                                                     That, sir, is inexcusable - (Silverlock)
                                         My turn to ask a question. - (Mike) - (2)
                                             That's simple. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                 I think..... - (Mike)
         It is one of the major dissappointments of my life . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
             I got lucky - (boxley) - (3)
                 I *HAVE* to ask - (Mike) - (2)
                     Damn right I was traumatized!!!! - (boxley) - (1)
                         LMAO -NT - (Mike)
             I would have rather that my brother hadn't... - (ben_tilly)
             Amen - (broomberg)

Nine crows at nine o'clock nigh.
113 ms