Post #371,290
2/12/13 10:42:06 PM
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Good speech tonight.
I liked almost all of it: Invest in new R&D like we did at the height of of the space race! Woot!
But he mentioned some things that annoyed me a little too. One I remember at the moment is an apparent reference to increased H1-B visas (roughly "increased immigration of the best scientists and engineers to do the jobs of tomorrow"). Immigration makes us a stronger country as long as the immigrants aren't coming here under programs to make them indentured servants and to reduce prevailing wages. There are too many qualified people out there who are not working. They deserve a level playing field, not one tilted by substantially cheaper imported labor.
I also wish he wouldn't keep repeating the meme that we need better education for existing jobs. Lots of smart people don't want to do science and engineering jobs because they can be rewarded much more highly by going into finance or law. It's not that we don't have enough trained people, it's that the reward-system has gotten too far out of whack[*]. Why does supply and demand no longer apply to wages except for corporate executives? Fix that, and you'll fix the "skills deficit".
People need better educational opportunities, at a reasonable cost, to strengthen society via clearer thinking (among other things).
Obama's very smart, and he no doubt repeated some of the Republican talking points to try to make it easier for them to vote for his proposals. He's trying to shape the debate. And that's fine. But memes do matter. If he doesn't help shape them ("Yes, we need better job training, but we also need to make sure that experienced workers can change jobs or careers in their 50s and 60s without being permanently frozen out of the job market....")
So much of what he proposed is common sense. It's a crime that we're still arguing in Congress over such things 6 years after the economy began to implode... :-(
Cheers,
Scott.
[*] - For yet another example of this, see http://www.theatlant...-engineer/272944/
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Post #371,293
2/12/13 11:05:27 PM
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no they dont
People need better educational opportunities, at a reasonable cost, to strengthen society via clearer thinking (among other things).
we need people that can weld a seam, cut a 45 degree joint, fit pipe, install and repair AC, sweat pipes, milk, feed and breed cows, fake out emission tests, rebuild motors, starters and transmissions, mix concrete, rivet steel, build furniture, butcher cattle, etc.
There is ZERO DOLLARS attached to ensure we educate desperately needed skills to our own population. I can't write a java program to unplug your toilet.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #371,294
2/12/13 11:08:10 PM
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well scoenye probably could
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #371,304
2/13/13 7:46:51 AM
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I'm still working on the "un" part...
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Post #371,297
2/12/13 11:39:11 PM
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A job is only part of life.
I was thinking more along the lines of this:
https://www.critical...ical-thinking/477
[Bertrand] Russell's conception of critical thinking involves reference to a wide range of skills, dispositions and attitudes which together characterize a virtue which has both intellectual and moral aspects, and which serves to prevent the emergence of numerous vices, including dogmatism and prejudice. Believing that one central purpose of education is to prepare students to be able to form "a reasonable judgment on controversial questions in regard to which they are likely to have to act", Russell maintains that in addition to having "access to impartial supplies of knowledge," education needs to offer "training in judicial habits of thought." (4) Beyond access to such knowledge, students need to develop certain skills if the knowledge acquired is not to produce individuals who passively accept the teacher's wisdom or the creed which is dominant in their own society. Sometimes, Russell simply uses the notion of intelligence, by contrast with information alone, to indicate the whole set of critical abilities he has in mind.
Knowing a trade is important. People who do keep the guts of complex societies running. But if someone knows how to think clearly along with having a trade, they can adapt as the job changes. And they can make judgements about which job to take and which to avoid. And they can figure out how to most effectively find a spouse and raise their children.
The world is more complex than it was in, say, 1920. We shouldn't expect that 12 years of universal education is enough now. Expanding education doesn't mean training more physicists at the expense of welders. It's not an either-or proposition if done properly.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #371,308
2/13/13 8:52:29 AM
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when was the last time you were on a campus?
The level of stupid was appalling at the one I was at last year and that was the professors
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #371,318
2/13/13 11:00:19 AM
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There are bad code monkeys, too, but coding is still imp't.
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Post #371,510
2/16/13 8:39:09 AM
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Yeah, it's BAD
I hear stories every day from M about her classmates and the occasional idiot teacher.
The boy, who is WAY smarter than me, agrees. And he is part of it. As he explained it to me:
Kids today don't need to know anything, just just need to know how to google it.
Really, this surface knowledge availability has destroyed a huge segment of kid's ability to internalize knowledge and then develop new relationships between pieces of knowledge, because it is all tidbits of immediate satisfaction with no in depth analysis.
Most people don't bother going to a 2nd page when they are "researching" something, they hover the google top links, find the easiest to read, and give it a shot. 2 or 3 clicks later that are done.
And those are the SMART ones!!!!!!
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Post #371,512
2/16/13 9:14:00 AM
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Meh. Same as it ever was.
Who was it? Homer? One of those other dead Greek guys? Anyway, there was this school of thought centuries ago that reading and writing were bad because it meant that educated people no longer had to memorize epic poems and stories and be able to recite them in an instant. Sure, that was a loss, but the benefits of writing and reading hugely outweigh that loss.
I remember when there were the first controversies about allowing calculators in math classes. Teachers eventually realized that calculators are a tool - students need to know how to apply them to a problem. Calculators don't magically give answers to arbitrary problems. (Anyone who thinks they do should sit in front of a Desmos screen for half an hour - https://www.desmos.com/calculator )
Having Google available is a great boon for mankind. But it means that teachers have to be smarter about presenting lectures and teaching. Yes, simply asking students to regurgitate names and dates is no longer an important skill (if you're willing to depend on ubiquitous internet access). And Google makes it easier to cheat, so teachers have to figure out ways to combat that.
But an important part of an education is knowing how to find existing facts and information. We don't get very far if we're constantly reinventing the wheel. And it's more important than ever to develop critical thinking skills. Google makes it easy to get a wide variety of thoughts and opinions - one needs to figure out how to sift it all out.
The world changes - film at 11:00. The educational system needed to adapt to handheld calculators, PCs, and now Teh Google. Those advances aren't necessarily making us stupider, but educators and students need to change to recognize their benefits (and limitations).
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #371,518
2/16/13 10:25:16 AM
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I have to tell you...
Back in 1999, I was worried about Google eliminating the need to Systems Administrators... (real ones not Microsoft Certified drones)
Now I view it as a tool to tell me what to look for, what the actual cause of my issue is, what idiots came up with what I'm dealing with and how to/what tools to use o combat it.
Its made my job easier on the bare metal side of things.... and allows me to devote time to doing INANE PCI COMPLIANCE SHIT.
But, truly it makes my life easier now... allows me to devote time resources and critical thinking on things that aren't yet solved.
It also causes the bane of my existence, fixing up things from people trying to fix things by rote, because it worked for someone and not understanding why it does or doesn't apply.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
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Post #371,309
2/13/13 9:11:43 AM
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Remember when that was called "Vocational Education"?
Expanding education doesn't mean training more physicists at the expense of welders.
I'd argue that's a good bargain; educating more physicists at the expense of training more welders. But education is not the answer. I used to believe it was. In my twenties I used to think that most people were stupid because they didn't have the educational opportunities I had (which, in hindsight was false. I put myself through school working at a hospital as an orderly and still made enough to pay tuition, books, food and rent. I realize this is no longer possible because we've decided that after the banksters have extracted all the value from our retirement plans, our healthcare delivery system, oil and other commodities and our homes, we've determined they should extract all the value from our higher education as well. And that costs us all a ton of money.) Education is not the answer, but for those capable of educating themselves, we should not be training more people for today's jobs that won't exist when they graduate at the expense of educating people who will be the creators of next generation jobs serendipitously.
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Post #371,311
2/13/13 9:25:18 AM
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what, people wont have to sh*t anymore?
dont need heaters or a/c? You will need to speak spanish because americans no longer know how any of that works
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #371,317
2/13/13 10:54:30 AM
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Not my point.
My point is that college is not the place to learn those skills. Those skills should be taught via Union Apprenticeships.
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Post #371,319
2/13/13 11:14:35 AM
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yes, not everyone needs to go to college
yet today's highschools tell every child that they must go to college, the kids expect to go to college even thought they dont have the temperament. As for union apprenticeships, who is going to pay for that? They are trying to destroy unions in this country.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #371,323
2/13/13 12:05:54 PM
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Re: who is going to pay for that?
The apprentice pays for it by receiving lower wages until they're officially qualified. OJT often works out that way.
Alex
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Post #371,324
2/13/13 12:08:09 PM
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College =/= 4 year College.
When Obama talks about College, he doesn't just mean 4 year schools.
Back to Shirky's post mentioned earlier - http://www.theawl.co...w-to-save-college
If you want to know what college is actually like in this country, forget Swarthmore, with 1500 students. Think Houston Community College, with 63,000. Think rolling admissions. Think commuter school. Think older. Think poorer. Think child-rearing, part-time, night class. Think 50% dropout rates. Think two-year degree. (Except donÂt call it that, because most graduates take longer than two years to complete it. If they complete it.)
If you want to know what college is actually like in this country, skip Google Images, and scroll through the (still heartbreaking) We Are The 99 Percent Tumblr, looking for the keywords "student loan."
Railing against pointy-headed academics is missing the big picture these days.
Post high school education is important, for just about everyone.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #371,331
2/13/13 1:19:18 PM
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what does the 2 year degree get you
other than having to explain the AA after your name doesn't necessarily mean you drink a lot
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #371,334
2/13/13 2:08:18 PM
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1000+ hits for "associates degree" on Monster.com. HTH.
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Post #371,335
2/13/13 2:21:10 PM
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1,000+ "Monster Behind" jobs matched your search HTH
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #371,336
2/13/13 2:22:24 PM
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Heh.
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Post #371,337
2/13/13 2:24:22 PM
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hey this is fun
26 Monster Butt jobs matched your search
8 Food Hole jobs matched your search
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #371,346
2/13/13 3:50:48 PM
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BUT!
The President of Wall Street is also NOT talking about resurrecting the union movement in this country. Which he'd have to concede if he weren't such a disingenuous ass is what really built the middle class in this country.
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Post #371,374
2/13/13 9:58:41 PM
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While your summary of 'The Murican Process' sounds paranoid
I rate the whole thing: +5 for stating what I'd deem to be as truthiness-filled as one is likely to find
(But Not in any mass-media bloviations on Any Channel: advertainment or ... the other 500 Channels with nothing on. But Ads, then fillers, then some vacuous Game/Sport/masturbation.)
We're fucked. In all orifices. Because Vulture-capitalism teaches every tyke that $$$ is the only fetish to be worshipped.
And they Believe.
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Post #371,352
2/13/13 4:25:04 PM
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Re: no they dont
we need people that can weld a seam, cut a 45 degree joint, fit pipe, install and repair AC, sweat pipes, milk, feed and breed cows, fake out emission tests, rebuild motors, starters and transmissions, mix concrete, rivet steel, build furniture, butcher cattle, etc.
Well, unions used to (and to some part, still do) train apprentices to do those things. However, thanks to the anti-union attitude in corporate America these past few decades, there are a lot fewer union people around who have the knowledge and experience to do the training.
Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous.
- - - Mark Twain ÂPuddÂnhead WilsonÂs New Calendar, 1897
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Post #371,359
2/13/13 5:59:12 PM
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A union guy taught me to weld and braze.
When I was 18, just out of high school and waiting to be drafted, I was working in car shops. The old man who ran the body shop at a Oldsmobile/Toyota/Mercedes dealership took a liking to me while I was doing undercoat work there. I was bored rigid with what I was doing, so he took me on in the body shop and taught me the old fashioned way of doing body work. I joined the union and they sent me through an apprentice program. I didn't find out until later that being a union guy working for general motors was essential to the war effort and I was unofficially deferred from the draft.
In addition I learned a trade and to weld with electric or gas and straighten frames. It's useless information now since cars don't have frames and are made of plastic and disposable panels, but it was fun at the time.
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Post #371,389
2/14/13 8:49:48 AM
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FIFY.
s/corporate America/corporate America, the USSC, Congress, the Senate and their ass clown President/
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Post #371,406
2/14/13 11:15:14 AM
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FYFIFY
s/corporate/Wall\ Street\ overlords\,\ corporate/
Just added the real overlords...
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
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Post #371,303
2/13/13 7:29:54 AM
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Well, If I can't say something nice,
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Post #371,305
2/13/13 7:55:27 AM
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I guess you missed the best part.
https://www.youtube....3By1BQMQJw9Tt8oGm (0:19). (Use headphones or mute.)
;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #371,307
2/13/13 8:46:18 AM
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Much better; more like reality.
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Post #371,376
2/13/13 11:02:31 PM
2/13/13 11:06:36 PM
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Or did you mean
Edited by Ashton
Feb. 13, 2013, 11:06:36 PM EST
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Post #371,378
2/13/13 11:33:57 PM
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A great collection. :-)
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