A job is only part of life.

Post #371,297 by Another Scott 2/12/13 11:39:11 PM Reply	A job is only part of life. I was thinking more along the lines of this: https://www.critical...ical-thinking/477 [Bertrand] Russell's conception of critical thinking involves reference to a wide range of skills, dispositions and attitudes which together characterize a virtue which has both intellectual and moral aspects, and which serves to prevent the emergence of numerous vices, including dogmatism and prejudice. Believing that one central purpose of education is to prepare students to be able to form "a reasonable judgment on controversial questions in regard to which they are likely to have to act", Russell maintains that in addition to having "access to impartial supplies of knowledge," education needs to offer "training in judicial habits of thought." (4) Beyond access to such knowledge, students need to develop certain skills if the knowledge acquired is not to produce individuals who passively accept the teacher's wisdom or the creed which is dominant in their own society. Sometimes, Russell simply uses the notion of intelligence, by contrast with information alone, to indicate the whole set of critical abilities he has in mind. Knowing a trade is important. People who do keep the guts of complex societies running. But if someone knows how to think clearly along with having a trade, they can adapt as the job changes. And they can make judgements about which job to take and which to avoid. And they can figure out how to most effectively find a spouse and raise their children. The world is more complex than it was in, say, 1920. We shouldn't expect that 12 years of universal education is enough now. Expanding education doesn't mean training more physicists at the expense of welders. It's not an either-or proposition if done properly. Cheers, Scott.
Post #371,308 by boxley 2/13/13 8:52:29 AM Reply	when was the last time you were on a campus? The level of stupid was appalling at the one I was at last year and that was the professors Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #371,318 by Another Scott 2/13/13 11:00:19 AM Reply	There are bad code monkeys, too, but coding is still imp't.
Post #371,510 by crazy 2/16/13 8:39:09 AM Reply	Yeah, it's BAD I hear stories every day from M about her classmates and the occasional idiot teacher. The boy, who is WAY smarter than me, agrees. And he is part of it. As he explained it to me: Kids today don't need to know anything, just just need to know how to google it. Really, this surface knowledge availability has destroyed a huge segment of kid's ability to internalize knowledge and then develop new relationships between pieces of knowledge, because it is all tidbits of immediate satisfaction with no in depth analysis. Most people don't bother going to a 2nd page when they are "researching" something, they hover the google top links, find the easiest to read, and give it a shot. 2 or 3 clicks later that are done. And those are the SMART ones!!!!!!
Post #371,512 by Another Scott 2/16/13 9:14:00 AM Reply	Meh. Same as it ever was. Who was it? Homer? One of those other dead Greek guys? Anyway, there was this school of thought centuries ago that reading and writing were bad because it meant that educated people no longer had to memorize epic poems and stories and be able to recite them in an instant. Sure, that was a loss, but the benefits of writing and reading hugely outweigh that loss. I remember when there were the first controversies about allowing calculators in math classes. Teachers eventually realized that calculators are a tool - students need to know how to apply them to a problem. Calculators don't magically give answers to arbitrary problems. (Anyone who thinks they do should sit in front of a Desmos screen for half an hour - https://www.desmos.com/calculator ) Having Google available is a great boon for mankind. But it means that teachers have to be smarter about presenting lectures and teaching. Yes, simply asking students to regurgitate names and dates is no longer an important skill (if you're willing to depend on ubiquitous internet access). And Google makes it easier to cheat, so teachers have to figure out ways to combat that. But an important part of an education is knowing how to find existing facts and information. We don't get very far if we're constantly reinventing the wheel. And it's more important than ever to develop critical thinking skills. Google makes it easy to get a wide variety of thoughts and opinions - one needs to figure out how to sift it all out. The world changes - film at 11:00. The educational system needed to adapt to handheld calculators, PCs, and now Teh Google. Those advances aren't necessarily making us stupider, but educators and students need to change to recognize their benefits (and limitations). My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #371,518 by folkert 2/16/13 10:25:16 AM Reply	I have to tell you... Back in 1999, I was worried about Google eliminating the need to Systems Administrators... (real ones not Microsoft Certified drones) Now I view it as a tool to tell me what to look for, what the actual cause of my issue is, what idiots came up with what I'm dealing with and how to/what tools to use o combat it. Its made my job easier on the bare metal side of things.... and allows me to devote time to doing INANE PCI COMPLIANCE SHIT. But, truly it makes my life easier now... allows me to devote time resources and critical thinking on things that aren't yet solved. It also causes the bane of my existence, fixing up things from people trying to fix things by rote, because it worked for someone and not understanding why it does or doesn't apply. -- greg@gregfolkert.net PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Post #371,309 by mmoffitt 2/13/13 9:11:43 AM Reply	Remember when that was called "Vocational Education"? Expanding education doesn't mean training more physicists at the expense of welders. I'd argue that's a good bargain; educating more physicists at the expense of training more welders. But education is not the answer. I used to believe it was. In my twenties I used to think that most people were stupid because they didn't have the educational opportunities I had (which, in hindsight was false. I put myself through school working at a hospital as an orderly and still made enough to pay tuition, books, food and rent. I realize this is no longer possible because we've decided that after the banksters have extracted all the value from our retirement plans, our healthcare delivery system, oil and other commodities and our homes, we've determined they should extract all the value from our higher education as well. And that costs us all a ton of money.) Education is not the answer, but for those capable of educating themselves, we should not be training more people for today's jobs that won't exist when they graduate at the expense of educating people who will be the creators of next generation jobs serendipitously.
Post #371,311 by boxley 2/13/13 9:25:18 AM Reply	what, people wont have to sh*t anymore? dont need heaters or a/c? You will need to speak spanish because americans no longer know how any of that works Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #371,317 by mmoffitt 2/13/13 10:54:30 AM Reply	Not my point. My point is that college is not the place to learn those skills. Those skills should be taught via Union Apprenticeships.
Post #371,319 by boxley 2/13/13 11:14:35 AM Reply	yes, not everyone needs to go to college yet today's highschools tell every child that they must go to college, the kids expect to go to college even thought they dont have the temperament. As for union apprenticeships, who is going to pay for that? They are trying to destroy unions in this country. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #371,323 by a6l6e6x 2/13/13 12:05:54 PM Reply	Re: who is going to pay for that? The apprentice pays for it by receiving lower wages until they're officially qualified. OJT often works out that way. Alex
Post #371,324 by Another Scott 2/13/13 12:08:09 PM Reply	College =/= 4 year College. When Obama talks about College, he doesn't just mean 4 year schools. Back to Shirky's post mentioned earlier - http://www.theawl.co...w-to-save-college If you want to know what college is actually like in this country, forget Swarthmore, with 1500 students. Think Houston Community College, with 63,000. Think rolling admissions. Think commuter school. Think older. Think poorer. Think child-rearing, part-time, night class. Think 50% dropout rates. Think two-year degree. (Except donÂt call it that, because most graduates take longer than two years to complete it. If they complete it.) If you want to know what college is actually like in this country, skip Google Images, and scroll through the (still heartbreaking) We Are The 99 Percent Tumblr, looking for the keywords "student loan." Railing against pointy-headed academics is missing the big picture these days. Post high school education is important, for just about everyone. Cheers, Scott.
Post #371,331 by boxley 2/13/13 1:19:18 PM Reply	what does the 2 year degree get you other than having to explain the AA after your name doesn't necessarily mean you drink a lot Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #371,334 by Another Scott 2/13/13 2:08:18 PM Reply	1000+ hits for "associates degree" on Monster.com. HTH.
Post #371,335 by boxley 2/13/13 2:21:10 PM Reply	1,000+ "Monster Behind" jobs matched your search HTH Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #371,336 by Another Scott 2/13/13 2:22:24 PM Reply	Heh.
Post #371,337 by boxley 2/13/13 2:24:22 PM Reply	hey this is fun 26 Monster Butt jobs matched your search 8 Food Hole jobs matched your search Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #371,346 by mmoffitt 2/13/13 3:50:48 PM Reply	BUT! The President ~~of Wall Street~~ is also NOT talking about resurrecting the union movement in this country. Which he'd have to concede if he weren't such a disingenuous ass is what really built the middle class in this country.
Post #371,374 by Ashton 2/13/13 9:58:41 PM Reply	While your summary of 'The Murican Process' sounds paranoid I rate the whole thing: +5 for stating what I'd deem to be as truthiness-filled as one is likely to find (But Not in any mass-media bloviations on Any Channel: advertainment or ... the other 500 Channels with nothing on. But Ads, then fillers, then some vacuous Game/Sport/masturbation.) We're fucked. In all orifices. Because Vulture-capitalism teaches every tyke that $$$ is the only fetish to be worshipped. And they Believe.

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