Don't even THINK...

Post #283,523 by bepatient 5/1/07 12:14:09 PM Reply	Don't even THINK... about giving BT a ride anywhere...given what you've dealt with already. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #283,525 by admin 5/1/07 12:24:51 PM Reply	Are you kidding me? He's not even allowed to stand near it. The car was just in the shop this weekend... seems the front torsion bar was nearly disconnected. Had it become more than nearly disconnected, bad things would have happened, mkay? And while it was in the shop... they scratched up one of the rear quarter panels. So I get to take it in again. They're paying for the work, of course. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #283,527 by Another Scott 5/1/07 1:01:28 PM Reply	ICLRPD. (new thread) Created as new thread #283526 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=283526\|ICLRPD.]
Post #283,529 by Yendor 5/1/07 1:09:26 PM Reply	BT + Scott's Audi == Serious case of... ...bad carma. -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #283,559 by n3jja 5/1/07 7:15:31 PM Reply	He is Tillaay! Destroyer of Vehicles! ;-)
Post #283,561 by folkert 5/1/07 8:07:20 PM Reply	Well, the torsion bar... being disconnected would have just cause the one side to go down to the "bumper stops". Just like the old Valiants used to do. Mmmm, interesting corollary there, donchyathunk? And you are STILL going to drive it to New Jersey, where it is daytime all the time due to the "natural" glow from all the super-sites. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #283,588 by admin 5/1/07 10:44:25 PM Reply	It was more than that. I might have the term wrong... at any rate it was a piece that would cause the nose end to go diving down into the concrete and the car to veer wildly out of control. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #283,596 by Andrew Grygus 5/1/07 11:03:58 PM Reply	That sounds more like an A-arm . . . . . but those critters are usually attached extremely securely, because if one of those lets loose the nose end will dive into the concrete and the car will veer wildly out of control. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #283,612 by Ashton 5/2/07 4:01:20 AM Reply	And.. and the Question is - - H. T. F. do you get something like that Coming Loose! on a 'modern' vehicle? allegedly built where they have discovered 'torque wrenches' (and lock-washers (usually, bent-over lock-tabs.)) Sheesh.. YPTB Teutonic
Post #283,628 by boxley 5/2/07 9:33:32 AM Reply	rubber wears loose, the pounding shakes it apart. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #283,631 by folkert 5/2/07 9:47:00 AM Reply	Then they don't have the bump-stops properly spec'd and manufactured. Design defect and should be recalled immediately. I am sorry, but any suspension component that is a "spring" in literally ANY stock "Murican" automobile has a feature that when the spring bustifies... the suspension is still sound but is severely wonky as far as stance. This should include torsion bar suspension in the old Valiants and should your A8, since it has to abide by US regulations in regard to basic safety. ANY spring can self-destruct and therefore the regulations exist to keep these things from making the vehicle's axle, etc from failing to do the basic work, though badly compromised on "quality" of work. Now, if indeed, a failing ball-joint has been ignored, it would have had Severe Problems with steering drifting, sudden (drastic) shifts in direction when driving over things like Rail Road tracks and many sounds when driving at slow speed. This ball-joint failure would have caused a nosed dive into the concrete. Though, I doubt your persnickety senses would not have missed the horrible tracking the steering would have done. So, in summary, the US has regulations regarding spring that all stock vehicles must adhere to when sold in the US from Dealerships locate inside the US. It is true that while your car would have looked like a "pimped out" A8 with hydraulics, it would have still been drivable if the Torsion bar spring had sheared or "let go". Unless the Ball Joint (or both) had failed, to which the suspension has been completely compromised, you would have been able to safely, but uncomfortably, drive to your $100/hr Audi Service Center. Yes, this rant about "scaring" people into authorizing work to be done is a common trait in "higher end" vehicle manufacturer, but also has been seen across the board. Its a pet peeve of mine, though I guess I have a lot of Pet Peeves. Including this sequence of hex numbers: Zero 9 Eff 9 One 1 Zero 2 Nine D Seven 4 Eee 3 Five B Dee 8 Four 1 Five 6 Cee 5 Six 3 Five 6 Eight 8 Cee 0 -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #283,640 by admin 5/2/07 10:35:44 AM Reply	Moot discussion now, sorry. :-) And it definitely needed replacing. Loud clankings and such are typically indicative of badness, not joyness. :-) These guys don't use scare tactics to get work... I had them look at the brakes and was told "they're fine, you won't need to do anything for another 15K miles at least". Brakes would have been a perfect opportunity to get mo' money from me. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #283,642 by folkert 5/2/07 10:41:31 AM Reply	Ehh, ranting. Its what I do. And see my other post on the other message. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #283,634 by Another Scott 5/2/07 10:08:04 AM Reply	You sure it's a torsion bar? Search for "A8" [link\|http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible.html\|here]. It sounds like the problem was more likely due to a bad link in the multi-link front suspension. OTOH, if you search for "torsion bar" it sounds as if that would affect the ride quality but not be so much of a safety issue. At least on old GM cars, the front torsion bar has long bolts with rubber bushings that always failed over time. It made noise, and made the car lean, but wasn't a real safety issue. FWIW. Cheers, Scott. (Who hopes the repairs went well.)
Post #283,639 by admin 5/2/07 10:33:36 AM Reply	Thrust arm, sorry. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #283,636 by CRConrad 5/2/07 10:31:27 AM Reply	I don't think the A8 has torsion suspension. The current model has air suspension; before that it was ordinary coil springs, I think. I would guess that the "torsion bar" you're thinking of is what is also called a "sway bar" (and probably lots of other terms too). [Sorry if this invalidates any of your pontifications, Greg. :^] [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #283,638 by admin 5/2/07 10:33:05 AM Reply	My bad; faulty memory. The lower thrust arm and a wishbone bar. Apparently the thrust arm was most of the way out of the bushing. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #283,641 by folkert 5/2/07 10:40:12 AM Reply	Makes MUCH more sense. That would drop the front suspension into the concrete. That is more like the Wishbone suspension the "Ford Model T" used. But just because it is an old design doesn't mean it is a bad one, in fact it is one of the best for ride and handling that has really ever been designed. The only problem with it, is the fragility of it, as was your case. Sorry to go on and on about the torsion bar... But hey, what else am I supposed to do? -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #283,646 by admin 5/2/07 10:52:16 AM Reply	So, what's a thrust arm in normal terms? I haven't had much luck looking it up online. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #283,647 by Another Scott 5/2/07 10:58:19 AM Reply	It holds the bitumogeneous spandrels. HTH!
Post #283,650 by jake123 5/2/07 11:23:40 AM Reply	Isnt' that what holds the havershaft to the giggleclamp?
Post #283,663 by folkert 5/2/07 11:51:37 AM Reply	No, that is the kininomer bearing pin, giggleclamps require 4 or 6 of them. It depends on the havershaft twist, being righthand adjustable or lefthand fixed. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #285,446 by jb4 5/26/07 10:49:59 PM Reply	Now just quit that out, the lot of you! It' too late at night for all this technical confabulation, dammit! jb4 "It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment." — George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07)
Post #283,659 by folkert 5/2/07 11:47:01 AM Reply	I'd have to say it Same thing as a panhard bar. Except since you independent suspension, it isn't quite a panhard bar. Panhard bars are made to keep a full axle in place with limited side to side movement. Now for something like independent suspension, you need something like a "Watts" link. Except live part of the Watts system are on the outer parts vs the the center. Though, there are other pieces it could be. One possibility being the "single end" of the wishbone. When I was doing sprint car racing a few (dam 10) years back the single eyelet end of the wishbone was called the "thrust end", because it was the piece that actually thrusted the front solid axle forward, that was the only connection to the solid axle to move it forward, hence the "thrust" link. So, given that it would have caused the front end to scrape on the pavement, I am thinking the second explanation. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #283,666 by admin 5/2/07 12:00:42 PM Reply	Something like this? [link\|http://www.tooladdiction.com/tool_for_bmw.htm\|http://www.tooladdic.../tool_for_bmw.htm] Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #283,667 by folkert 5/2/07 12:04:06 PM 5/2/07 12:05:30 PM Reply	Reverse Watts Link it is, then. Hmmm. Also functioning as a lower control arm. To which the wishbone looks like it is connected to. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned. Edited by folkert May 2, 2007, 12:05:30 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #283,670 by admin 5/2/07 12:16:26 PM Reply	My current understanding is this: The thrust arm governs the position of the vertical wheel plane (perpendicular to the axle). So had this gone, the wheel would have been wobbling back and forth like a drunken sailor. Not pavement diving, but still very hard to control. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #283,672 by folkert 5/2/07 12:19:35 PM Reply	That is what a reverse watts link does... It operates as a "lower control arm" when used in independent suspension. But then, I am speaking from /dev/ass as I have never really^W looked at the A8 suspension. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #283,687 by CRConrad 5/2/07 4:02:14 PM Reply	The "position of the vertical wheel plane"? Yeah, in the... ...fore-and-aft direction, to be precise -- the vertical is also "perpendicular to the axle", but that is handled by the springy bits of the suspension. :-) Like Greg says in the great-grandparent post to yours, "thrust" implies that it's pretty much parallell to the long axis of the car, to transmit the fore-and-aft forces from the drivetrain and brakes. (And I think that's what it looks like in those BMW pics you found.) That's a "multi-link" suspension, the even-newer development from the "double wishbone" suspension, where one or both (usually just the lower, I think) of the A-arms has been replaced by two or more separate simple rod-shape arms; kind of like picking the "A"- or "wishbone"-shaped arm apart into two: A -> /\\ . So it seems your A8 has multi-link, not actual double A-arms. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #283,691 by Andrew Grygus 5/2/07 5:36:20 PM 5/2/07 5:39:37 PM Reply	Yup . . . . . they use a "multi-link" design because regular A-arms take too much dedicated space. With multi-link they can squeeze more stuff into a smaller space, and the tortured shapes of all those components demonstrate they're squeezing every cubic inch they can get. Oh, pardon me . . . they would be squeezing "cubic centimeters" over there, wouldn't they? [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus May 2, 2007, 05:39:37 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #283,700 by CRConrad 5/2/07 6:00:19 PM Reply	Jawohl. And every one they save, they squeeze into the engine instead, you know. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #283,690 by CRConrad 5/2/07 4:51:36 PM Reply	That's a very different "wishbone". Fords, both of Model T and Model A, used longitudinal "split wishbones", one on each side of the car, with the single-head end attached to the chassis and the double-head end attached to the ("live", i.e solid beam) front axle. These are nicely illustrated at [link\|http://www.zigsstreetrods.com/Pages/suspfrntcomp.html#RadiusRods\|Zig's Street Rod - Suspension - Front Components / Radius Rods]; it's the long thing that's attached to the frame far behind the front axle -- that really looks like a chicken wishbone! (They don't work too well, though; for the better alternative, go back up to [link\|http://www.zigsstreetrods.com/Pages/suspfrntcomp.html#FrontParallelLinkKits\|Zig's Street Rod - Suspension - Front Components / Front Parallel Link Kits].) Many modern cars (i.e, since about 1950 or so) use "double wishbone" suspensions with two transversal A-shaped arms on each side, one above the other, and with the single-head ends attached to the vertical spindle --or, nowadays, a "virtual" spindle between the top and bottom ball joints at the outer (single) ends of the A-arms or "wishbones". Go to the [link\|http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible.html\|Suspension Bible] the Other Scott so helpfully found and search in the page for "double wishbone", and you'll see how they're totally different. It has just about NOTHING in common with the Tin Lizzie's "Wishbone" suspension, except the name. Not "an old design" at all. (Then check [link\|http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible.html#antiroll\|the bit about anti-roll bars] and you'll see how you were kind of right to "go on and on about the torsion bar" after all: The A8 does have a torsion bar -- the sway bar is a torsion spring, only it springily-connects the wheels not to the chassis but to each other. :-) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #283,692 by folkert 5/2/07 5:46:59 PM Reply	Yep, schooled I am. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.

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