Post #275,594
12/12/06 8:58:28 PM
|
Trouble
I've seen the iTunes version of Dog Whisperer, and it seems that all is not well in our pack.
The smaller of my twins, Daniel, ended up being afraid of Mandy. His brother Michael can handle the itchy teeth fine - he gets bitten a bit, tells Mandy not do do it and pushes a chewing toy into her mouth. Works just as well as when I or my wife does it.
Daniel says he is not afraid, but he acts as if he is. And the dog completely feels it. She is perfectly well behaved with me or Irka, pretty good with Mike when he does not gets her overexcited, but she nips at Dan's heels. Looks like she decided that she is higher in the pecking order than my son.
Anyone has any advice as to how to correct the situation? I guess the trick is to train Dan, not Mandy. But where can we turn for such training?
------
179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
|
Post #275,597
12/12/06 9:12:50 PM
|
FWIW you're right about who needs to be trained
That's one thing they made very clear in the puppy class we went to: You can't train a dog in 8 one-hour sessions. What you do is train the handler.
I'd be careful how you stop the dog from nipping. If you're always the one to break it up the dog will learn that Daniel is "yours", but when you're not around he's fair game.
Now that the dog already thinks he's above your son, the boy is going to have to "show him who's boss": Put him down agressively, make the dog submit and roll over. Snarling and baring teeth is not acceptable. (If he starts, don't try to grab the muzzle. Place the hand, with fingers together and thumb against the hand, on top of the snout and push down while holding the dog so he can't back up.) Your son will probably feel bad doing this to a puppy, but the dog needs to know his place. He'll be happier and less confused.
===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
|
Post #275,644
12/13/06 8:07:46 AM
12/13/06 8:16:12 AM
|
Alpha roll is method of last resort for experts.
Ark needs to get a trainer into the home.
If you fuck up dominating your dog, you end up with a fear-aggressive animal and a whole pile of trouble. Too many people assume that bad behaviour in dogs is down to dominance or the lack of, and it just isn't so.
I think your (and Bill's, because it's a fancy-pants version of yelling at your dog) advice is bad, Drew, and will lead to more problems, not fewer.
In any event, you shouldn't be leaving a puppy alone with a child.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[link|http://darwinia.co.uk/|[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]]
Edited by pwhysall
Dec. 13, 2006, 08:16:12 AM EST
|
Post #275,651
12/13/06 9:16:15 AM
|
Since I have trained more dogs than you have et hot dinners
It is not a version of yelling at your dog. The dog is a pack animal, He needs to know where he fits in. Doesnt mean you dont love the mutt, the dog will be told that often. You are just speaking dog to him until he can learn your language.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
|
Post #275,670
12/13/06 10:45:58 AM
|
Anecdotal.
You call it "thrashing" the dog, assert physical dominance over it and make growling noises at it?
Yeah, that's a fancy-pants version of yelling at your dog.
You might well have trained more dogs than I've "et" hot dinners, but so what?
I've played more games of Counter-Strike than you've "et" hot dinners, and I'm rubbish at THAT.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[link|http://darwinia.co.uk/|[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]]
|
Post #275,676
12/13/06 11:56:34 AM
|
kiss my ass, you might be good at that
its how dog trainers are trained
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
|
Post #275,693
12/13/06 2:15:40 PM
|
You bothered to post /that/?
Lame.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
|
Post #275,695
12/13/06 2:27:56 PM
|
It must be the holidays
good cheer and all that rot.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
|
Post #275,700
12/13/06 2:46:43 PM
|
naw, too much of einsteins theory is anecdotal :-)
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
|
Post #275,736
12/13/06 8:47:43 PM
|
We're talking about a specific behavior
Too many people assume that bad behaviour in dogs is down to dominance or the lack of, and it just isn't so. Nipping at one child, when it doesn't nip at the other, is not just "bad" behavior. It is dominance. ===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
|
Post #275,765
12/14/06 7:21:19 AM
|
And an alpha roll is not the way to fix it.
The reason the alpha roll works is because you put the dog in fear of its life - it's the position the alpha male puts the wannabe alpha male into before he rips its throat out.
Way to train!
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
|
Post #275,770
12/14/06 8:20:14 AM
12/14/06 8:27:17 AM
|
I'm going to stop complaining now...
...and give some positive ways to both reinforce pack heirarchy (if that's the problem) and to promote good behaviour:
1. Ensure that when you enter the room, you greet people first, then the dog. Ignore the dog (no matter how much he plays up) until you've greeted all the people, then greet the dog. Alphas greet first.
2. Eat before the dog and ensure he can see you eating before him. Alphas eat first. Then make him sit and wait for his food. It's tricky with a puppy, but we had Max sitting before eating at 12 weeks old. If he won't sit, just keep the food out of reach but in eyesight for a moment or two.
3. Reward good behaviour as much as you reprimand bad behaviour, and be metronomically consistent. Good behaviour includes toileting in the right place. This is very hard indeed, especially at 3AM when you're trying to be enthusiastic about the dog peeing outside.
4. Out-think your dog. Dogs are problem-solvers par excellence, but you might need a spot of lateral thinking to understand what problem he's trying to solve. Take, for example, the problem of the kitchen bin. It's a powerful draw to most dogs, and yelling at him will make him leave it alone. He'll solve that problem by simply going to the bin when you're not looking.
5. Be aware of when the dog's training you, instead of vice versa. Classic example is the dog wandering up to you and sitting nicely at your feet, and you give him a treat. The dog's in control of that situation. Reward the dog when he does what he's asked to do, and not otherwise.
6. Crate train your puppy. This will help bladder control (dogs don't like to mess their sleeping quarters), self-confidence (the crate is their special safe place where they can go when they've had enough play), and will help avoid the problem of the dog only sleeping on your bed. Don't use the crate as a punishment.
Alpha roll? Bollocks to that. You'll just get a dog that's snappy, or pisses everywhere, or is hand-anxious.
Lastly, pick up after your dog. I hate seeing dogshit on the pavement.
Edit: Really really lastly: unless you want puppies or to put the dog to stud, spay or neuter your dog. A lot of annoying testosterone-fuelled behaviour goes away in male dogs, too - there's no power or command or food treat that can bring back an intact male dog that's got a sniff of an in-season bitch, and humping's just embarrassing.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
Edited by pwhysall
Dec. 14, 2006, 08:22:37 AM EST
Edited by pwhysall
Dec. 14, 2006, 08:27:17 AM EST
|
Post #275,776
12/14/06 9:08:50 AM
|
Lots of good advice.
Colleen hated the crate. She was house-trained when we got her, so that wasn't an issue with us. My SIL's husky mix loves her crate, though. IOW, crates aren't a universal training tool.
Sometimes the over-on-the-back maneuver is necessary. Pit bull mixes and other large, powerful dogs especially need that reinforcement, sometimes. It's a good way to get their attention and impress upon them that you're serious.
It would probably be best if Arkadiy (and family) went with his pup to a training class with someone well-recommended, though. Armchair quarterbacking and TV shows only go so far.
The last thing I would add is that it's important that dogs have enough to do. Make sure you've got time for regular, long walks with them and have toys for them to stay occupied. Dogs that have nothing to do but attack the mailman every day get to be neurotic.
Cheers,
Scott.
|
Post #275,777
12/14/06 9:14:38 AM
|
You missed why the alpha roll causes problems.
Seriously. It's like hitting your engine randomly with a lump-hammer to fix a sticking lifter. I don't want ANYONE to do it, because it's the dog equivalent of getting what you want by threatening, in all seriousness, to kill someone. I got this off t'internet (top result from a Google search for "alpha roll"), but it's a reasonable summary of why I think the alpha roll is wrong in pretty much any circumstance: The only reason that a dog will FORCEFULLY flip another dog over on its back is to kill the animal.
By forcing an animal to submit in that way you are literally putting the fear of death into them, they think you are trying to kill them. It is not surprising that a lot of people get bit trying to do the alpha roll - the dog believes that the human is trying to kill them so they try and defend themselves. Doing this behavior to an already dominant animal can increase the likelihood of aggression. Doing this to an already submissive animal will increase the fear in that animal - leading to submissive urination and possible fear biting. Hands should never, ever be used to hurt an animal - an alpha roll does just that and its efficacy at asserting dominance is next to zero." Just because a dog is naturally strong-willed doesn't mean you have to scare it to death to train it. That said, I don't think a sharp smack on the nose is always a bad thing. One of the problems that people have with punishing their dogs is this: dogs use pain to discipline each other, but the difference between a dog doing it and a human doing it is that most of the time, the dog's timing is much, much better. Accept that as a human, your timing is crap and that you're better off, most of the time, not hitting your dog.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
|
Post #275,778
12/14/06 10:31:22 AM
|
I didn't miss it, I disagree.
Caveat: I'm no expert.
In shows I've seen on TV about wolf behavior, they show their submissive behavior by rolling on their sides or back and exposing their neck. I've never seen (that I recall) a dominant wolf attacking another in such a position. They don't seem to regard it as a suicidal action, but a sign of respect.
In "The Dog Whisperer", Caesar often puts dogs on their sides or backs when they don't respond to lesser methods. He doesn't yell at them, he doesn't hit them (but will poke them to get their attention). He uses what they understand as alpha behavior to impress upon them that they're not the alpha. He raises and trains dogs and has a specialty in pit bulls and rotweilers. He certainly [link|http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20041017-9999-lz1a17beast.html|seems to know what he's doing].
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
|
Post #275,779
12/14/06 10:46:00 AM
|
Dog Whisper Bloke doesn't alpha roll dogs.
If the dog goes down of its own accord, that's not an alpha roll. That's submissive or appeasive behaviour.
If you don't violently flip the dog, it's not an alpha roll. After all, I frequently roll my dog over when we're playing, but there's a clear difference between that and an alpha roll - one involves violence, the other involves having his feet and tummy tickled.
And finally, I believe that there's a big disclaimer on the Whisperer along the lines of "DON'T ATTEMPT ANY OF THIS SHIT WITHOUT CONSULTING AN EXPERT DOG TRAINERIZER", much like the Dog Borstal and It's Me Or The Dog programmes on this side of the pond.
Final analysis: I'm not sure that what you call an Alpha Roll and what I call an Alpha Roll are at all the same thing.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
|
Post #275,782
12/14/06 10:49:23 AM
|
I don't alpha roll dogs either.
I don't have a recipe for that.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #275,791
12/14/06 11:14:08 AM
|
Clarification.
An example of what I'm talking about is when he picked up a snarling, thrashing dog, held it on its side or back with his hand on its neck and said "Shush!" and didn't relent until the dog calmed down. For an video example, search for "Cesar's Toughest Cases" [link|http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/video/index.html|here] for an example 3 minute video clip. It's the first one that shows up. And finally, I believe that there's a big disclaimer on the Whisperer along the lines of "DON'T ATTEMPT ANY OF THIS SHIT WITHOUT CONSULTING AN EXPERT DOG TRAINERIZER", much like the Dog Borstal and It's Me Or The Dog programmes on this side of the pond. Indeed. I agree that he needs to see a trainer. :-) Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #275,867
12/15/06 9:34:34 PM
12/15/06 9:35:18 PM
|
Training vs. breaking bad habits
I'm hoping my next dog will be a puppy. I've never had one. I'd like to start out with all the "right things" and maybe it'll all work.
But the one I have now was a stray. After the first class, the trainer pulled us aside and said if we couldn't keep him from going after the other dogs at the next session, we'd have to get private training. At the last session two months later, there was a German Shepard bitch in season. Woodie was the only one that would walk past her without stopping. (Well, not every time. [Okay, he walked past her once.])
Yes, he was probably afraid of me the first couple of months. You'd never know it to see him now. He has never gone after people, or we wouldn't have kept him. But he was afraid of other dogs. He had probably lost a few fights. I had to convince him that I was the only one that got to challenge other dogs.
Yes, I'm a sample size of one. But I did the research, listened to a trainer, and it seems to have worked.
===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
Edited by drewk
Dec. 15, 2006, 09:35:18 PM EST
|
Post #275,784
12/14/06 10:55:28 AM
|
oh, did you get that crap from willyipedia?
The only reason that a dog will FORCEFULLY flip another dog over on its back is to kill the animal. you read it on the internet so it must be true? ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT that activity is extremely common in packs and is just a place holder. Why the fuck do you think dogs like their belly rubbed? Because it itches? No they are submitting to you. It is submission/reminder behavior, not killing behavior. Dogs that want to kill hamstring before going for the throat. Agree on the neutering bit thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
|
Post #275,796
12/14/06 12:28:31 PM
|
Whatever, Bill.
And remember, I'm reading what you're saying on the internet.
bill->hoist(bill->petard);
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
|
Post #275,797
12/14/06 12:49:00 PM
|
yabut /me isin ixpert
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
|
Post #275,789
12/14/06 11:07:57 AM
|
That is not my experience and I have 3 dogs.
I have 2 retriever mutts and a miniature schnauzer. The alpha has put the schnauzer on her back a number of times without harming her. It's just a way of establishing superiority.
I also put them on their backs when they forget who's boss. I am not rough, but firm and I don't growl or threaten. I just stare into their eyes until they submit. Then I let them up. They remain friendly (sometimes overly so) and their main treat in the morning is to roll onto their backs for tummy rubs as part of their morning petting.
My 0.02
|
Post #275,814
12/14/06 7:59:38 PM
|
There's an element of training in there.
I've been reminded of how I made friends with my mother-in-law's dog - an 8yro Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. I'm not afraid of dogs, but I won't have them doing what they like to me. She might have a favourite way to say 'Hello - Can I Be Your Friend?', but my response needs to be 'I Can Be Your Friend, But You're Never My Equal'. Without even realising I was doign it, I taught my mother-in-law's dog that I preferred to rub her belly in greeting, rather than have her jump up and lick my face. Within only a few weeks, she would roll over on her own accord as her way of greeting me.
So rollover submission can be taught. :-)
Wade.
"Don't give up!"
|
Post #275,599
12/12/06 9:25:37 PM
|
nope you train the dog
the following technique is called thrashing your dog. Keep yer shirts on and put the hotline to the spca down.
Thrashing a dog
a new puppy/dog likes to playfully nip. The alpha male and female have to play along by snapping your fingers around the muzzle to simulate a nip while growling, get on your hands and knees to get closer to their level. As the puppy/dog gets a little rougher growl like you are a VERY pissed off dog,grab the dog by the jowls and snarl and snap your teeth close to the neck while roughly placing the dog on its back. That is the submission position for a dog. After the dog yelps and squiggles push it away sharply. Do this a couple of times. After a while when the dog hears that "special" growl, they know they have pissed off the alpha male/female.
Now when the dog is nipping at the boys heel, thrash her immediately, grab the jowls, roll her on her back and snarl. After a while she will realize that although Daniel is "weaker" than her he is above her in the pecking order. After she is thrashed put her nose next to daniel and firmly tell her "bad dog, say sorry" have daniel proffer his hand and see if she will either lick it or instruct daniel to pet her.
shouldnt take too long.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
|
Post #275,617
12/12/06 10:52:03 PM
|
Both Drew and Box are right.
You need to talk to your kid about it and get him to understand what to do to change the dog's mind. Meanwhile, what you do with Mandy when she tries to lord it over Daniel will give Daniel some time to gain confidence. Mandy will learn that you consider Daniel higher than her and when he can assert his place, she will learn that he considers himself higher than her.
Wade.
"Don't give up!"
|
Post #275,729
12/13/06 7:41:50 PM
|
Wolves aren't dogs, but..
I've observed the 'training of a wolf pup' by a mature wolf, on many occasions. And by 'owner' - a visible confluence, to say the least.
Friend L. would be deemed an expert in such matters, not only for having two in her tribe (+ transients) but for her trips around the country, most often related to rescuing such animals from snuffing in Murican animal shelters crematoria -- this for, quite longer than a decade.
While I do not deceive self that I have acquired her lore through osmosis, I've seen enough Live demos + filmed ones, to possess an informed opinion, at least re Wolves, not in-the-wild. Witnessing a few of the techniques the pros learned through shared tips with others - beats any manual.
Among these: L's ... periodic ... need to reassert that She is the alpha male. Period. And with an 80#+ pack-mate, this 'assertion' process will cause owners of cocker-Spaniels to wet pants.. L. is not a large woman (but in great shape); she has had to throw Ivan ~ across a small room - to Get his attention re. some serious infraction of rules for sharing-space, etc. (Ivan won't 'break'; that would be obvious when, with his paws on your shoulders - you are looking at each other at eye-level.)
She must become Tiger lest Ivan imagine that Tsardom is within his grasp. Her moves are premeditated, and have nothing to do with anger, or of instilling a 'fear' response of random neurotic kind: it's about maintaining a hierarchy which, if allowed to deteriorate - WILL produce neurotic behavior in all parts of the tribe, even the 'experienced' biped.
L. would say it better, for having-to - to so many who don't know shit, but read something somewhere. One employs force according to size (!) and the importance of a particular lesson. Sometimes there evasion isn't possible, nor would a 'treat' cajole.
(As Box noted, 'Course! - there Are all kinds of occasions / the majority, in fact / where Love is shown and reciprocated.. probably no more movingly than in Ivan's massive caring for the growth of a *blind* pup (who appears to have acquired bat radar as a now-adult; many cannot believe Jupiter/Jupie is blind, even with the unarguable evidence.)
Dogs are not wolves. But the differences/similarities aren't fodder for a sound bite. The commonality is surely about the pack-animal innate genetic codes shared, despite designer-breeding of the domesticated dogs.
Offhand, I can't think of any substitute for acquiring the tutoring of a truly experienced animal handler, wherever you see that you just don't know what's going on with your beast -- or what you should/shouldn't 'do' about it. (I certainly do not qualify to teach anyone, and believe no one can do much remote analysis.. beyond noting a few attitudes? that can help a new owner to acquire smarts.) No reason a tyke can't learn a few basic 'assertions' - it would likely be good for his own growing sense of er {ugh - another word so badly mauled} 'empowerment'?
My 3 itty-bitty wolf nips
(Jupie now acknowledges my scent too as, ~~ Shit! this biped already knows I'm a pussycat at heart.. guess we can just play, then.)
|
Post #275,743
12/13/06 10:15:54 PM
|
Here's an often ignored rule
If the parents of the child who wants the dog have never cohabited with one of our furry friends, they shouldn't get one.
Ever.
-----------------------------------------
Draft Kucinich [link|http://www.kucinich.us/bio.php|now].
|
Post #275,787
12/14/06 10:58:00 AM
|
true, unless on parent has
get them a goldfish or a cat. One is low maintenance and the other is self sufficient. Unless you are willing to commit to an animal for its life as an integral part of your family dont bother.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
|
