Post #275,496
12/11/06 4:36:07 PM
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Submarine crews . . .
. . have always been selected with extreme care and are held to very strict routines under very controlled conditions for limited periods at a time.
You could similarly select for your "self sustaining" colonies but that would break down with the second generation - if it lasted that long which I doubt very much that it would. Imagine rebelious teenagers lose in the colony, and love triangles, and all the other stuff we have here.
Yes, breeder slaves. Women are going to want children of their own with their own man - to say nothing of the men - unless you force them - breeder slaves.
And you say your space colonies will nuke the infrastructure that built them from orbit? I imagine there'll be plenty of "just in case" hardware ready to fuel.
Yes you are dreaming - you've read too much science fiction.
No, humanity will not become barbarian plains monkeys, though social structures may have to change quite a lot in response to environmental pressure. It will still be a culture far less dehumanizing than that of your underground colony on the moon.
But then maybe you'd really enjoy living on a nuclear submarine for the rest of your life. Have at it.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #275,527
12/11/06 11:22:38 PM
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Sure. Whatever.
Social order breaks down in the second generation in smaller groups.
Women that don't choose their donors (though there's no problem choosing partners) are slaves.
I somehow mention nuking infrastructure from orbit.
You're hallucinating.
Whatever.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #275,540
12/12/06 3:12:29 AM
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In smaller groups . . .
. . social order tends to break down in the first generation, not the second.
I have watched any number of well meaning non-profit groups become successful organizations, then suddenly collapse in disarray due to a power struggle or jealousy among its leaders.
You don't like "nuke from orbit"? Then explain to me by what method the massive infrastructure necessary to build a space colony is going to simply disappear. Having been involved first hand in the Apollo project (on the manufacturing side) I can assure you the supporting infrastructure is many, many times the size of the visible part.
Compare the massive size of the Apollo vehicles and the far more massive size of the support and manufacturing infrastructure that built and launched those vehicles to the size of the Moon Lander itself. Consider the minimum size for a colony to achieve self sufficiency and the duration of the project before it achieves that state. Proportion that to the size of the moon lander and the duration of its mission. Now proportion back to find the size and cost of the infrastructure needed to build that colony and support it to self sufficiency.
Science fiction can be a great deal of fun because it gets to ignore the tawdry details of reality and of human nature. A real project can't.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #275,543
12/12/06 7:36:01 AM
12/12/06 7:38:23 AM
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OK, wrong again. I am *shocked*
- Then small tribes never existed, and island cultures are imaginary. The people alway die out, right? Riiiiight. We'll just ignore the idea that there are whole worlds that could be expanded into, so it needn't remain tiny forever, nor do the people need to be huddled together all the time.
- Oh, let's see now. I talk about civilisation falling apart, and you wonder how infrastructure will disappear. And since moving supplies is so expensive, don't expect 'raiders from Earth, either. Duh.
You confuse science fiction with fantasy set in a technical background. Science fiction has a funny tendency to come true in one form or another. We WILL go to other worlds to live, despite your reactionary 'don't go! It's DANGEROUS out there' attitude. I truly hope that we do it fast enough to preserve us through what I think is to come. Your way, social collapse and the 'social evolution' (talk about fantasy!) preserves nothing and leaves the door to the death of humanity as a species even wider. edit: damn that title was harsh
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Edited by imric
Dec. 12, 2006, 07:38:23 AM EST
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Post #275,555
12/12/06 10:27:13 AM
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The death of humanity as a species is a given.
Time is the only variable. You think our technology will extend that time - I do not. Current science and cosmology provide no practical way to expand even to the most nearby (and very hostil) worlds, and finding another that is actually habitable is entirely out of the question.
There may be a way out of here but it's not through technology. You'd need to come up with a whole new definition of how the universe works and demonstrate that it works that way.
The massive expenditure and depletion of resources you propose to set up one or two doomed colonies would be far better spent fixing problems here, and that would also avoid the severe damage to the upper atmosphere your project would cause.
As for your small tribes and island peoples - point me to one where power struggles and fits of jealousy were/are not a feature. They live in a highly resiliant environment that can absorb damage done, and for those who can't get along, there's the option of leaving. In your colony just one person with a grudge and suicidal frame of mind could easily destroy the entire colony.
And even if it did survive into a second or third generation, expecting the people there to adhere faithfully to your plan is simply absurd. They will have their own agenda.
Living as a tribe of Siberian nomads would be far richer and less dehumanizing than living in your underground moon base would be anyway.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #275,556
12/12/06 10:44:43 AM
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amen on your last sentence
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #275,560
12/12/06 11:09:30 AM
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So - Let's sum up your points
- Small colonies are impossible wherever they go, small groups are intriniscally non-viable. Expansion is impossible away from Earth.
- It's cheaper to UNDO damage we've done, with unspecified technologies that do NOT exist, change all existing cultures, and it is safer to meddle further with an ecosystem we don't know how to manage now, than to plant seeds elsewhere. This is more viable than to improve existing technologies to go to places out of reach of the coming disaster as a backup. Above all, the attempt should be avoided.
- A rocket adds so much more (on a global scale) damage to the ecosphere that extra-terrestrial (planetary/lunar) colonies would doom us all. Well, more doomed.
- Humans having their own agenda is a bad thing. Central planning and control is all - their agenda would certainly have not include survival (the goal involved here).
- Humanity would be better off with a nomadic/tribal lifestyle - after all it is idyllic and wouldn't have the problems you cite for colonies.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #275,581
12/12/06 6:11:23 PM
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"Mein Fuhrer, I Can Walk!"
[link|http://www.correntewire.com/mein_fuhrer_i_can_walk|http://www.correntew...fuhrer_i_can_walk]
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