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New Longest way round is the shortest way home
[link|http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46828|Breaking news]:

WorldNutDaily Correspondent Injured When Own Ox Gored; Calls for Universal Ban on Horns at All Football Games
I was prompted to write and comment after reading the story on the New Jersey football coach that resigned because he was prohibited from leading his team in pre-game prayers.

Let me start by saying I am an evangelical Christian and have pretty hard-core beliefs about the rights of individuals, particularly students, to express their faith, to include religious themes in their school work, to perform Christian-themed music and dramas during school talent events, etc. If a school administrator had ever tried to stop one of my kids from carrying a Bible, participating in voluntary prayer, or openly discussing their faith with another student, I would have sued him back in to the Stone Age

You might be surprised then to learn that I am adamantly opposed to teachers and other school officials leading students in prayer or the conduct of prayer rituals, even by students, at officially sanctioned events. Why would I take a position that is seemingly so at odds with my core beliefs?

Throughout the vast majority of the United States, most religious practices and beliefs are rooted in a traditional Judeo-Christian belief system. As such, prayers conducted before a football game or at a graduation ceremony, even if so bland and non-proselytizing as to be meaningless, are generally offered in the context of the traditional Jehovah God of the Old and New Testament. However, that is not the case in all corners of our nation.

I had the privilege of serving our nation's Air Force while assigned to Hickam Air Force Base on the beautiful island of Oahu in the beautiful state of Hawaii. Because of the arrangement of military housing in that location, my family and I actually lived not at Hickam near the Honolulu metropolitan area, but at Wheeler Air Force Base in the central part of the island just out side of the small pineapple-farming town of Wahiawa. In Wahiawa we found a small Baptist church that met our family's needs. However, Christians and others from various Judeo-Christian traditions were in the very distinct minority in this little village that was populated predominantly by people of Japanese and Chinese ancestry. Rather than a church on every corner, as is common in the continental 48 states, Wahiawa had a Shinto or Buddhist shrine on every corner.

Because we worked in the youth department of our church and taught teenage Sunday School classes, we were anxious to be involved in the lives of the students we worked with. So we were quite excited to be able to attend our first football game at Wahiawa High School. Upon our arrival at the stadium it seemed like so many other high school athletic events we had been to in many other places. The teams were warming up, the band was gathering, the ROTC was preparing to raise the colors \ufffd a pretty typical fall ritual.

Coming from a fairly traditional Southern upbringing, I was not at all initially surprised when a voice came over the PA and asked everyone to rise for the invocation. I had been through this same ritual at many other high-school events and thought nothing of it, so to our feet my wife and I stood, bowed our heads, and prepared to partake of the prayer. But to our extreme dismay, the clergyman who took the microphone and began to pray was not a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest, but a Buddhist priest who proceeded to offer up prayers and intonations to god-head figures that our tradition held to be pagan.

We were frozen in shock and incredulity! What to do? To continue to stand and observe this prayer would represent a betrayal of our own faith and imply the honoring of a pagan deity that was anathema to our beliefs. To sit would be an act of extreme rudeness and disrespect in the eyes of our Japanese hosts and neighbors, who value above all other things deference and respect in their social interactions. I am sorry to say that in the confusion of the moment we chose the easier path and elected to continue to stand in silence so as not to create a scene or ill will among those who were seated nearby.

As I thought through the incident over the next few days I supposed that the duty of offering the pre-game prayer rotated through the local clergy and we just happened to arrive on the night that the responsibility fell to the Buddhist priest. However, after inquiring I learned that due to the predominance of Buddhist and Shinto adherents in this town, it was the normal practice to have a member of one these faiths offer the pre-game prayer, and Christian clergy were never included. Needless to say that was our first and last football game. Although many of the students we worked with continued to invite us to the games, we were forced to decline. We knew that if we were to attend again we would be forced to abstain from the pre-game activity. And not wanting to offend our Asiatic neighbors and colleagues, we simply refrained from attending.

The point is this. I am a professional, educated and responsible man who is strong in his faith and is quite comfortable debating the social and political issues of the day. Yet when placed in a setting where the majority culture proved hostile to my faith and beliefs, I became paralyzed with indecision and could not act decisively to defend and proclaim my own beliefs. I felt instantly ostracized and viewed myself as a foreigner in my own land.

We often advocate the practice of Judeo-Christian rituals in America's public schools by hiding behind the excuse that they are voluntary and any student who doesn't wish to participate can simply remained seated and silent. Oh that this were true. But if I, as a mature adult, would be so confounded and uncomfortable when faced with the decision of observing and standing on my own religious principals or run the risk of offending the majority crowd, I can only imagine what thoughts and confusion must run through the head of the typical child or teenager, for whom peer acceptance is one of the highest ideals.

I would say in love to my Christian brothers and sisters, before you yearn for the imposition of prayer and similar rituals in your public schools, you might consider attending a football game at Wahiawa High School. Because unless you're ready to endure the unwilling exposure of yourself and your children to those beliefs and practices that your own faith forswears, you have no right to insist that others sit in silence and complicity while you do the same to them. I, for one, slept better at night knowing that because Judeo-Christian prayers were not being offered at my children's schools, I didn't have to worry about them being confronted with Buddhist, Shinto, Wiccan, Satanic or any other prayer ritual I might find offensive.
As John Sayles put it in Lone Star, "It's always heartwarming to see a prejudice defeated by a deeper prejudice." If we must endure living under this constitutional non-theocracy for a few more of these pre-rapture years, then better we accept some minor limitations on the dissemination of our beliefs than be compelled to share the high school playing fields with belief systems we despise.

But I'm actually charmed to find a Christer nutcase "getting it," even if he comes at it from the wrong side of the compass.

devoutly,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New slumming ? /me/dux :-)
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Seems another case of CASIP
Conceit, arrogance and stupendous intolerance - obliquely admitted, but the expected sanctimonius pride nullifying any healing 'confession'. Poor Jesus - how must one Third of-a-Godhead feel, about having created a Monster?

It's 2006 and the Bulletin/Atomic Sci. clock is still only at about 7 min. to Midnight:
do you know where your children are?


New Interesting
Yet when placed in a setting where the majority culture proved hostile to my faith and beliefs ...
So praying to the "wrong" diety is hostile. Yup. That about sums it up.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Yeah.
Sometimes I despair of Humanity.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New And just think, he was "one of the good ones"
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New I heard an analogy about
Christians.

If you think of a church as a sort of hospital for sick/hurt souls, and you'll be less outraged at the kind of people you find there.

I have a different problem with the 'healers' altogether.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
Expand Edited by imric Sept. 5, 2006, 11:12:56 AM EDT
New Yep... didn't find this guy too impressive
There was a story on CBC Radio One last year by a guy that went down to the SE to hang out with some of the evangelicals down there. At one point, he recorded the pastor he was staying with as "it's surprising -- here's one of the people that don't believe, and I'm not afraid to leave my children or my wife with him or anything!" (Paraphrase; it was a while back that I heard the story.)

'Pears that they think that anyone who's not one of them is a potential pedophile/rapist/angel of darkness.

This guy seemed to think that it was better (as in, more polite) to not stand during the Buddhist prayers and go to the football game then to constantly turn down the invitations from his neighbours to go see some football. They must've thought that he was an elitist exclusionary tool... and they'd've been right.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Expand Edited by jake123 Sept. 5, 2006, 12:25:34 PM EDT
New That's *exactly* what they think
'Pears that they think that anyone who's not one of them is a potential pedophile/rapist/angel of darkness.
The(ir) "One True God[tm]" is the one source of morality. If you don't believe in Him (the right way and based on the right translation of what He said) then what restrains you from the most wicked acts of depravity?

This suggests of course that if that person has a crisis of faith they will go all Lord of the Flies on you.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Yeah, and considering the extent to which they're in the
current power structure helps to explain why The Rest Of The West is looking fairly askance at the US these days...
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Not really, the leadership panders to them during the
election cycle then ignores them the rest of the time.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New And sometimes they come around from the right side...
When I was ten, we moved back to Italy and I spent my 5th grade year in a school run by nuns. In Italy at the time (maybe still) elementary school teachers tracked up the grades with their students from 1st to 5th grade, then cycled back to 1st for another batch. So I found myself in a class that had been together and with the same nun since 1st grade.

They had been praying in class every morning since 1st grade. Well, a couple months into the school year our nun said we wouldn't be doing that any more--we were old enough now to be responsible for saying our own morning prayers at home before school.

Some of the girls protested, saying they'd forget, but she stuck to her guns, suggesting ways they could remind themselves if they wanted to.

I've always remembered that.
Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for.
You don't need George Bush for that.
New Nice - seems that the really Sharp nuns are indispensable
to any hope of gluing-together the whole frat-boy infrastructure. Likely you've seen Sister -?- the art lecturer, periodically on PBS. No dummy she (either.)

     Longest way round is the shortest way home - (rcareaga) - (12)
         slumming ? /me/dux :-) -NT - (boxley)
         Seems another case of CASIP - (Ashton)
         Interesting - (drewk) - (7)
             Yeah. - (imric) - (2)
                 And just think, he was "one of the good ones" -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                     I heard an analogy about - (imric)
             Yep... didn't find this guy too impressive - (jake123) - (3)
                 That's *exactly* what they think - (drewk) - (2)
                     Yeah, and considering the extent to which they're in the - (jake123) - (1)
                         Not really, the leadership panders to them during the - (boxley)
         And sometimes they come around from the right side... - (GBert) - (1)
             Nice - seems that the really Sharp nuns are indispensable - (Ashton)

It doesn’t get tagged as pathological, even if using it means you ignore actual people.
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