Post #264,051
8/7/06 10:51:47 AM
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Which all begs the question
People with an agenda love to ask, "Are you better off than you were six years ago?" If you do well at your job and get promoted, the answer will usually be "yes". But the important question -- the one that can't be answered clearly, so we don't bother trying -- is whether you're better off than you would have been if X. What X is depends on your agenda.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #264,056
8/7/06 11:06:24 AM
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Re: Which all begs the question
Its seems that "those with the agenda" are telling everyone "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" (that man being every single econ indicator)...listen to me when I tell you its "really bad".
Are their troubling trends...absolutely. And I'll be first in line telling you that the loss of our heavy industry base (core manufacturing) is the single largest one. It creates the middle class void, makes it harder for undereducated and underskilled workers to find decent wage jobs. Is that Bush's fault? Hardly. Can fault be directed at either party? No. Everyone is culpable there (including our union friends).
But the current mantra is everything is crap and that all of this growth is in Mcdonald's fry cook jobs. (Dems had TV ads to that effect). What I'm saying is that their position is unsupportable given the data.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,063
8/7/06 11:59:28 AM
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I'll disagree on that
And I'll be first in line telling you that the loss of our heavy industry base (core manufacturing) is the single largest one. It creates the middle class void, makes it harder for undereducated and underskilled workers to find decent wage jobs. Is that Bush's fault? Hardly. International trade is in a tragedy of the commons situation. If you don't chase the cheaper labor, your competitor will. You'll be out of business. I've seen interviews with CEOs who said they'd support legislation that made it harder to offshore work. They'd like to hire American, but can't stay in business unless their competitors do the same.[1] I've said before the way to do this is not tariffs, but human rights and OSHA regulations. Don't import anything that was made under conditions that would be illegal here. Don't just export our pollution to someone else's back yard. Don't import things that were manufactured under abusive conditions. There would still be savings to be had offshoring, but not as much as there are now. [1] I believe Larry Elison was one of the ones who said it. He said offshoring was basically "Washington's problem, not mine". ===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #264,066
8/7/06 12:14:13 PM
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But we don't want pollution in our yard
OK, say you have $4 billion and want to build a new refinery in the US....where are you going to build it?
The answer: no where! Because, everyone will says: NIMBY. But the world needs another refinery, so it gets built in, say, China.
Everybody wants the jobs, but nobody wants the headaches, and everybody can sue to stop it. So, there hasn't been a new refinery built in the US for something like 30 years. And the same is true of a lot of heavy industry - it's dirty, noisy, smelly, etc.
But, yes, a lot could be done, such as streamling approval. And both parties are much better at symbolic stuff, than figuring out what would really help our economy, especially if it would offend some of their key donors (e.g. trial lawyers, teacher's unions, "environmentalists", ADM, etc).
--Tony
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Post #264,071
8/7/06 12:32:53 PM
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That's where it gets tricky
The easy rule is that you can't import anything made in a way that you couldn't legally make it here. What happens when it's technically legal, but due to local opposition you can't actually get the permit?
We saw this when California was having the blackouts (ignoring for the moment that Enron basically engineered them) and the governor said Texas should allow the California power grid to be connected to theirs. So after decades of fighting power plan construction, after decades of criticizing Texas for their pollution problems, when they come up short of power they're perfectly willing to use that smoggy power.
As far as I'm concerned, if you vote against a power plant, you should be first in line when rolling blackouts are needed. Vote against a textile mill, and you can't buy the cheap imported clothes.
Scaling this idea up to a national level isn't exactly easy, but as a guiding principal I like it better than just slapping tariffs on whatever we're trying to protect today.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #264,073
8/7/06 12:37:17 PM
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It's not just NIMBY.
[link|http://www.naseo.org/Committees/energyproduction/oil/Refining.htm|Refining]: The U.S. has the largest and by far the most complex refining system in the world, reflecting its being the world\ufffds largest consumer of both oil and transportation fuels (see Graph). However, only Africa has a lower average capacity per refinery than the U.S. level of 94 thousand B/D. The pressing need to minimize unit costs and refining\ufffds pronounced economies of scale strongly suggest that the number of refineries in the U.S. will continue to decline, while those that remain will continue to expand their capacity through debottlenecking. IOW, if refining doesn't make the companies money, they won't invest in it. :-( Cheers, Scott.
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Post #264,068
8/7/06 12:25:02 PM
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Doesn't solve core issue
There is a need to have an expanse of jobs for "unskilled" labor that gives them a chance to get futher training, advancement ops. Heavy industry provided this to this economy through and into the 80s. The net bubble masked the real impact to the economy of the failure of steel, auto, etc...by creating a buzz about themselves.
Certainly there is the competitive issue, that could be addressed with tarrifs and/or restrictions. Even given those, regulatory crap makes locating new heavy industry in this country cost prohibitive. Simply can't afford to build refinery, power gen, large scale mfg in this country anymore...regardless of labor expense because of the massive bs involved in permitting, zoning, NIMBY etc.
Another failure feeding this issue, and I've also mentioned this here before, is our failure to educate...especially in major metro areas...that leads to a class of workers that are not only unemployed...but also largely unemployable in the current economy.
Both of these issues are hardly "current".
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,081
8/7/06 1:08:46 PM
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I definitely agree with one point
the education system is badly broken. It's broken up here, too, but not nearly as badly as yours is, thanks to the provinces sharing the resources of the rich boards with the poor ones.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #264,101
8/7/06 2:56:41 PM
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What would you train them to be?
IT? Other technology?
Middle management?
Top management?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #264,108
8/7/06 3:35:24 PM
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Welders, mechanics, operators (machine), butchers, bakers
cabinet makers, etc.
There is life outside of corporate and computers. Quite a bit of it, actually.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,114
8/7/06 4:35:19 PM
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ROFL! Not what I meant at all!
Manufacturing positions?
Producers of luxury goods?
Ron is a welder - he makes $15/hour. Not enough to make it by himself. MiG, Tig - heavy, light.
Ross is doing carpentry. He also does not get enough work to get by. And this is in a place where the economy is relatively good.
Machine shops? Big demand, I guess - building the machines that keep our industrial base humming along.
Mechanics? Ok - you have me there. As fewer people can afford to buy new cars, and have to keep the older ones going, that's gonna be a 'growth' industry.
Bakers? OK. Working in large bakeries at minimum wage to produce the cheap bread that the bulk of the people can afford, or higher paid bakers providing luxury items? Limited demand for the latter.
I repeat. Train them for what, exactly?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #264,115
8/7/06 4:40:45 PM
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He forgot candlestick maker too :0)
We're gonna need a lot of them when we start taxing the power grid.
Smile,
Amy
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]
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Post #264,116
8/7/06 4:51:19 PM
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Now this ought to be interesting coming from me.
Are either of those 2 gents in the related union for those services?
I got mid 20's boys here laying carpets and earning a living. Home Depot will match Ron's 15 and give him benefits.
So you still contend that the only way to "make it" is to go corp or IT. (I know this isn't the case...but that seems to be the conclusion from the posts).
And, btw [link|http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_SC16000075.html|Ron's underpaid]
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,120
8/7/06 5:10:50 PM
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Problem with "earning a living"
The thing about climbing the ladder is that the it only passes overhead every so often. If you don't grab that bottom rung and start up, it may be years before you get another chance to move beyond just "earning a living".
I think that's why a lot of the people mentioned in that article way up in this thread have dropped out of the game. They know that once they accept a job that allows them to "earn a living" they're ineligible for getting back on the ladder.
Okay, the metaphor is getting clunky. But the reality is there were times when I was unemployed and I didn't even look at the listings for the entry-level positions. Sure, I could have earned a living doing them. But it would have set me back years in my career. It's perverse, but it's more acceptable to have a several-month gap on a resume than it is to have a period of underemployment.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #264,123
8/7/06 5:19:28 PM
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Been there, too.
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Post #264,124
8/7/06 5:19:35 PM
8/7/06 5:20:28 PM
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Dupe (How'd that happen?)
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Post #264,131
8/7/06 5:44:14 PM
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Nah - my point
is that all the training in the world isn't gonna fix the economy if the paying jobs aren't there in the first place. We'll just have desparate, highly trained underemployed and underpaid people.
Further - training for management jobs is a dead-end, too. Eventually, as the ability for the masses to consume dries up, the industries that cater to our market will also dry up.
And - Unions? Like it or not, most of THEM are useless anymore. Regardless of how much you may want them to be a whipping boy. Talk to Riiich about THAT one. They take dues and bend over for management, most of the time.
And as for Ron being underpaid? Perhaps he shouldn't take the only jobs he can find, and instead should sit around doing nothing and wait for a magic job to appear that's on that chart?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #264,121
8/7/06 5:10:52 PM
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Butchers aren't happening either...
The trend around here, anyway, is to get rid of the local meat workers (they make too much money) and centralize to one meat packer. The stores get plastic wrapped meat, which IMO is inferior to that we used to get. I still go to fish and meat mongers, so I don't buy that stuff from supermarkets. It's only a big deal to me because my wife's aunts and uncles largely worked in the meat departments of local supermarkets and got downsized or early retirement. When I knew the guys in the meat dept. by name, I used to buy from there, incidentally.
My wife now, used to be the heavy hitter in the income department for the family. She was vice-president for trading in a Cleveland company. She quit to take care of her parents at the end of their lives, and now is looking at going into retail sales in hopes of making over 25K again. She used to make about 100K over that before bonuses and wot not. We are just old and if I lose my job, I'll probably never work in tech again either.
Rising economy my ass, to coin a phrase...
my 0.02 while I can afford them.
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Post #264,127
8/7/06 5:32:29 PM
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Actually not as bad around here
Maybe in the grocery stores...south Philly has the food distribition and packing area that is doing pretty well...and growing. Possibly at the expense of the store employees...that I couldn't say.
Most of the folks there I knew though..have skipped...preferring to not work in the winter conditions in July. (couple reconsidered that position after last weeks 120's, though. :-))
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,130
8/7/06 5:43:37 PM
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Well, it's 2 out of 3 of the dominant chains here.
Top's and Marc's both unload and stock with min wage help. I guess I just don't have enough of a high level view of things to see the wonderful economy. The lrpd is appropriate The simple fact is that we cannot find enough qualified people in Cleveland (the world's dumbest leper colony) to do all the work we need done.
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Post #264,084
8/7/06 1:24:32 PM
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I'll second that
Our foreign trade deficit is the highest it's ever been. Who is responsible for that?
Smile,
Amy
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]
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Post #264,088
8/7/06 1:49:37 PM
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You are.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,095
8/7/06 2:03:28 PM
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I beg to differ.
I'm not out there buying up all the imported items I can lay my hands on. I make an effort to buy American made goods.
Besides, smart-aleck, there is such a thing as foreign-trade policy and it comes from the top.
:-P
Smile,
Amy
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]
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Post #264,102
8/7/06 3:09:39 PM
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Beg all you like
Its simply not possible, no matter what the "trade policy" du jour is. As Greg pointed out, there simply isn't enough "American Made" to make a difference. Especially when you add energy into the trade imbalance.
And a crap trade balance is also one of those "not so current" items. You can certainly say this admin isn't doing what they can...but you just as certainly can't blame them for it.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,122
8/7/06 5:19:07 PM
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No, I won't
You can certainly say this admin isn't doing what they can...but you just as certainly can't blame them for it. Yes, I can. Smile,
Amy
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]
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Post #264,126
8/7/06 5:28:14 PM
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You may want
to look at some economic history then.
But...nice thing is its a free country. You can do anything you like, providing it be legal, no matter how misguided it may be ;-p
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,097
8/7/06 2:31:23 PM
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And so are you.
There really isn't ANYTHING "American Made" anymore.
Sure, Assembled in America, "manufactured in America" with Foreign Parts. It is a shame.
"Made in America" only applies to babies (but not all the times)
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyFreedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;
0 rows returned.
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Post #264,098
8/7/06 2:42:34 PM
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:-)
[link|http://travel.discovery.com/fansites/jrmia/goods/season3.html|Made in America].
;-p
It's a decent show. I've seen the [link|http://travel.discovery.com/fansites/jrmia/goods/stickley.html|Stickley Furniture] and [link|http://travel.discovery.com/fansites/jrmia/goods/sheltons.html|Shelton's Better Packages] episodes.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #264,099
8/7/06 2:44:17 PM
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Which goes to the point I made to Drew
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,110
8/7/06 4:00:50 PM
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"All-American" content is not smart
I want to make a good machine. I'm not going to compromise the machine design just to make it "All American". If an American company makes a quality product that fits my requirements, then there's a good chance I'll use it.
And, unlike most of you, I am involved with selecting components. Most of our parts are from the US, Japan, and Germany, with some stuff from Italy, France, Switzerland, Taiwan, and, yes, China. For example, for our needs, Panasonic's micro PLC's fit our needs (and budget) much better than anything from Allen Bradley. We use sensors from Italy that have no equivalent anywhere else in the world. And so on.
BTW, most of the world is similar, e.g. few things "Made in China" are 100% made from Chinese components. In disk drives, for example, Hutchinson (USA) makes about 70% of the suspensions (and they are made in the US) while a Japanese makes most of the spindle motors. So a disk drive may be assembled in China or Singapore, but its parts come from all over the world, including the US.
--Tony
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Post #264,111
8/7/06 4:04:03 PM
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Actually, iirc
Hutchinson is owned by the French. :-)
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,112
8/7/06 4:18:34 PM
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No, public company on the NASDAQ
[link|http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HTCH&script=2100|http://www.corporate...=HTCH&script=2100]
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Post #264,113
8/7/06 4:33:43 PM
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ok. thought it was
[link|http://www.hutchinsonrubber.com/gb/index/index.asp|these guys]
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,100
8/7/06 2:50:50 PM
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The gains made by the few bring the averages up.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #264,106
8/7/06 3:26:03 PM
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Thats what the other link was for
because that isn't supported by the data either.
Hell, if you eliminate the outliers (those obscene CEO numbers made by about 6 guys) and use just base CEO compensation..its only up about 3 and a half percent. Same as everyone else.
So again...your perception...the same as Box...is your reality. The data doesn't support it.
Add them back and you get things like the guy at Cap One that made almost 300million. 7 million salary and a quarter billion in stock options he had to sell or lose.
Is that ridiculous. Sure. But so is A-Rod making $1million per RBI and Howard Stern's deal with the sat radio folks.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #264,109
8/7/06 3:59:29 PM
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No?
So - the people in the bottom 10% increased their savings by the same percentage as the people in the top 10%? A rising tide floats all boats, eh?
No?
So then at least the people in the bottom 10% didn't lose ground, right?
No?
I don't give a tinker's damn about trivial exceptions on either end - and you know it.
And - it ain't just my reality. It's the reality of a helluva lot of people. If more people are complaining than cheering - it probably isn't all sunshine and roses. You might want to take a look at the reports, and not just imply that those people are living in their own (incorrect) reality.
You might not like the the surprise when your bubble bursts and you end up in their shoes.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
