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New It's the nature of averages...
By using the Median (half above, half below) some of the problems with "averages" can be minimized. But problems exist none-the-less.

There's a lot of data at the Bureau of Labor Statistics site that can give a better picture of what's going on than the overall number. For example, the [link|http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/dsrv?nc|National Compensation Survey] pages let you construct tables of values for the past few years. It shows that top level ("Level 14") mathematicians and computer scientists (occupation 07000) had a drop in average (I assume these are means and not medians, but I can't find a clear statement about that) wages since 2002:

September 1997: $47.58
December 1998: $49.86
September 1999: $51.82
July 2000: $56.34
January 2001: $61.36
July 2002: $67.20
July 2003: $58.13
July 2004: $56.92

yet the average for all 07000 jobs in all levels rose continuously from $26.96 to $35.07 over that same time period.

There can be huge differences in wages over time for some occupations in some areas. E.g. #33438

State : Georgia
Area : Atlanta, GA
Occupation : Food counter, fountain and related occupations
Level : Overall occupation average (no work level)

October 1997: $7.00
No data for 1998
January 1999: $5.83
August 1999: $5.87
January 2000: $6.32
January 2001: $7.43
No data for 2002
January 2003: $8.29
December 2003: $7.10
No data for 2004
January 2005: $6.37

Bottom line: Don't put too much stock in a single national number and attempt to correlate it with what's happening in your area. Also, increasing wages for higher level employees can mask stagnant or falling wages for entry level employees.

There's probably enough data at the BLS to determine whether wages in a particular occupation at a particular skill level have risen or fallen since the late 1990s, but you'll probably have to build the tables yourself.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Same error both sides
The question is about the new jobs...and everyone's contention is that they are all fry-cooks.

Mean or median...if it was as they contend...would both fall precipitously. Its not happening.

I'm getting headhunter calls for management level, high paying jobs. LOTS of calls. My old employer is hiring..completely new job growth...jobs from 60-100k. I'm continually told that this CAN'T be the case because all the new jobs created in this economy are low paying jobs.

The data and my experience contradict that assertion.

Is this to say, that in this population that is largely IT driven, that this situation in IT related jobs is different? I find that VERY likely and much easier to believe. Especially considering that the bubble artificially inflated the pay of some of these classifications of jobs.




Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Both sides are correct
Entry level / general tech / few day trainable skill jobs are shrinking.

The VERY entry level clerical jobs are automated out of existance. I've been doing that for years, which means fewer people get a lot more work done. I've just spend 90 minutes writing a Perl script that automates 2 full time jobs out of existance. Yup, I'm scum.

Entry level factory jobs are either mechanized or moved off-shore. Or both.

So, there are more people available at that level, which depresses wages for anyone left still employed.

Executive / management / very specialized skillset demands are growing. The pool of people that reach this level seems stagnant, which means really good people are always in demand and command a serious salary.
     Men dropping out of work force - (JayMehaffey) - (102)
         Of course it points that out - (bepatient) - (88)
             Exactly. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                 Ah, so its a GOD given right - (bepatient) - (5)
                     Heh. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                         Somehow I think you misinterpreted - (bepatient)
                         Oh, and another thing. - (bepatient) - (2)
                             You think people don't take pay cuts today? - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                 You are confused - (bepatient)
             Wow, almost perfectly opposite impression - (JayMehaffey) - (80)
                 Huh? - (drewk)
                 Timing of publication and the publication itself. - (bepatient) - (78)
                     Ferchrissakes. - (mmoffitt) - (77)
                         Apologist for whom, exactly? - (bepatient) - (76)
                             lowest unemployment in years, I agree - (boxley) - (75)
                                 Saw this a while back - (bepatient) - (74)
                                     crock o sommat - (boxley) - (4)
                                         doesn't jibe with the figures - (bepatient)
                                         It's the nature of averages... - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                             Same error both sides - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                 Both sides are correct - (broomberg)
                                     possible nit - (boxley) - (68)
                                         other places too - (bepatient) - (66)
                                             P1ss on that. - (imric) - (65)
                                                 I can finger just as many - (bepatient) - (64)
                                                     100% - (imric) - (63)
                                                         Let's take a poll: Better or Worse Worse - (imqwerky) - (62)
                                                             Better. - (imric) - (2)
                                                                 Considering Cost of Living even? - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                     Yup. - (imric)
                                                             7/8 of what I was making in 1998 - (boxley)
                                                             Depends on what you mean by better - (JayMehaffey) - (2)
                                                                 Seconded - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                     Thirded - (lincoln)
                                                             Better - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                 Don't I wish - (drewk)
                                                                 IT did have a bubble that is well burst - (boxley)
                                                             Worse - (bionerd) - (9)
                                                                 By what measure then? - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                     While she considers herself better off, - (SpiceWare) - (1)
                                                                         true nuff -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                     It's a double-edged sword. - (bionerd) - (5)
                                                                         Now wait just a minute - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                             Hold on there, babalooey. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                 I didn't. - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                     Last on this. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                         2 sides in every negotiation. Mgt caved. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                             Better - (SpiceWare) - (36)
                                                                 Which all begs the question - (drewk) - (35)
                                                                     Re: Which all begs the question - (bepatient) - (34)
                                                                         I'll disagree on that - (drewk) - (30)
                                                                             But we don't want pollution in our yard - (tonytib) - (2)
                                                                                 That's where it gets tricky - (drewk)
                                                                                 It's not just NIMBY. - (Another Scott)
                                                                             Doesn't solve core issue - (bepatient) - (13)
                                                                                 I definitely agree with one point - (jake123)
                                                                                 What would you train them to be? - (imric) - (11)
                                                                                     Welders, mechanics, operators (machine), butchers, bakers - (bepatient) - (10)
                                                                                         ROFL! Not what I meant at all! - (imric) - (6)
                                                                                             He forgot candlestick maker too :0) - (imqwerky)
                                                                                             Now this ought to be interesting coming from me. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                                                 Problem with "earning a living" - (drewk) - (2)
                                                                                                     Been there, too. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                     Dupe (How'd that happen?) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                 Nah - my point - (imric)
                                                                                         Butchers aren't happening either... - (hnick) - (2)
                                                                                             Actually not as bad around here - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                 Well, it's 2 out of 3 of the dominant chains here. - (hnick)
                                                                             I'll second that - (imqwerky) - (12)
                                                                                 You are. -NT - (bepatient) - (11)
                                                                                     I beg to differ. - (imqwerky) - (3)
                                                                                         Beg all you like - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                             No, I won't - (imqwerky) - (1)
                                                                                                 You may want - (bepatient)
                                                                                     And so are you. - (folkert) - (6)
                                                                                         :-) - (Another Scott)
                                                                                         Which goes to the point I made to Drew -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                         "All-American" content is not smart - (tonytib) - (3)
                                                                                             Actually, iirc - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                                 No, public company on the NASDAQ - (tonytib) - (1)
                                                                                                     ok. thought it was - (bepatient)
                                                                         The gains made by the few bring the averages up. -NT - (imric) - (2)
                                                                             Thats what the other link was for - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                 No? - (imric)
                                                             Depends on your take of the situation... - (Yendor)
                                                             Worse. Much worse. -NT - (Silverlock)
                                                             Worse - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                 That's not a realistic metric - (tonytib) - (1)
                                                                     Just makes it worse - (tuberculosis)
                                         Funny that I know so many in NJ - (imric)
         Ah, now I see where this is going - (JayMehaffey) - (12)
             Matters not. - (imric) - (6)
                 You got that right. -NT - (imqwerky)
                 you forgot the outlaws -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                     True. -NT - (imric)
                     And the lawyers ... or is that redundant? -NT - (drewk) - (2)
                         CAN they be 'outlaws? - (imric) - (1)
                             Think about it - (drewk)
             I wish the NYT didn't make you pay for access - (lincoln) - (1)
                 The Smirking Chimp has it. - (Another Scott)
             That Brooks is a talking head-up-ass on PBS - (Ashton) - (2)
                 Isn't about 95% of that piece tongue in cheek? - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     It could be his idea of subtlety, I suppose - (Ashton)

I'll teach you to be happy! I'll teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
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