Wow, almost perfectly opposite impression

7/31/06 12:13:24 PM

Timing of publication and the publication itself.

While it read as a partial indictment of these people, I question the source and the timing..and if it wasn't, indeed, going to be used later in conjunction with a "woe is the economy" spin, which really does run counter to every single indicator (except housing starts...which is getting hammered by the uptick in interest).

Its the New York Times. Not exactly a pro-gov rag...at least not this gov.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #263,832

by mmoffitt

8/4/06 9:55:06 PM

Ferchrissakes.

Who did this administration contact when they wanted to strike back at Wilson by outing his wife? Ferchrissakes.

Ever the apologist, eh Beep?

bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell

Post #263,835

8/4/06 10:10:19 PM

Apologist for whom, exactly?

The BLS announced the lowest unemployment figure in years...I am of the opinion that the liberal left CAN NOT LET THIS GO UNCHECKED. So within a couple of days, the NYT comes out with this article which, though questioning their motives, tries to highlight that this number is false because people are just deciding not to work...for their various reasons.

And I suspect the motives.

Who exactly am I apologizing for? It was simply questioning the motives of the Times.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #263,838

by boxley

8/4/06 10:17:58 PM

lowest unemployment in years, I agree

I also want to see the wage band where these jobs are being created, somehow I dont think it is 40-100k class.
thanx,
bill

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep

Post #263,841

8/4/06 10:39:56 PM

Saw this a while back

which counters that argument. And I must say that I have a tendency to agree with their outcome. Hard to reconcile mass creating of low paying jobs with wage growth equaling or exceeding inflation.

[link|http://www.factcheck.org/article208.html|http://www.factcheck.org/article208.html]

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #263,846

by boxley

8/4/06 10:54:30 PM

crock o sommat

A new set of numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics actually shows solid growth in employment in relatively higher -paying occupations including construction workers, health-care professionals, business managers, and teachers,

construction waqes have fallen due to illegal immegrants, locally from $15 per hour for carpenters to $10. Health care proffesoinals have taken huge hits because of outsourcing to contractors. Average wage for LPN in Florida was 8-10 an hour down from 15 a few years ago. Business managers, also a hard hit group pay wise, collapsing the management layers eliminated a lot of them and the rest get paid less. Teachers? What is the mantra nation wide "underpaid overworked"crapaud my friend.
thanx,
bill

Post #263,858

8/5/06 1:54:00 AM

doesn't jibe with the figures

your assertions cannot be true "en masse" or the average wage figure would be taking a serious dive, which it isn't.

The article says, and I agree, that single cases where someone goes out long term or must accept a lower paying job after a loss are there..but that is NOT the majority case otherwise there would be support for that in the loss of average wage..and that hasn't occurred.

And the exact opposite case for healthcare workers is going on here. There is a severe shortage of qualified workers. RN wages are up substantially and the contractors are being added to the workforce to spell the workers already there.

Met a man in Ireland made his living on importing nurses because of this shortage in the US.

Aint alot of mex's in NJ to offset contractor pay...and they are building one hell of alot of houses around here.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #263,867

8/5/06 9:52:34 AM

It's the nature of averages...

By using the Median (half above, half below) some of the problems with "averages" can be minimized. But problems exist none-the-less.

There's a lot of data at the Bureau of Labor Statistics site that can give a better picture of what's going on than the overall number. For example, the [link|http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/dsrv?nc|National Compensation Survey] pages let you construct tables of values for the past few years. It shows that top level ("Level 14") mathematicians and computer scientists (occupation 07000) had a drop in average (I assume these are means and not medians, but I can't find a clear statement about that) wages since 2002:

September 1997: $47.58
December 1998: $49.86
September 1999: $51.82
July 2000: $56.34
January 2001: $61.36
July 2002: $67.20
July 2003: $58.13
July 2004: $56.92

yet the average for all 07000 jobs in all levels rose continuously from $26.96 to $35.07 over that same time period.

There can be huge differences in wages over time for some occupations in some areas. E.g. #33438

State : Georgia
Area : Atlanta, GA
Occupation : Food counter, fountain and related occupations
Level : Overall occupation average (no work level)

October 1997: $7.00
No data for 1998
January 1999: $5.83
August 1999: $5.87
January 2000: $6.32
January 2001: $7.43
No data for 2002
January 2003: $8.29
December 2003: $7.10
No data for 2004
January 2005: $6.37

Bottom line: Don't put too much stock in a single national number and attempt to correlate it with what's happening in your area. Also, increasing wages for higher level employees can mask stagnant or falling wages for entry level employees.

There's probably enough data at the BLS to determine whether wages in a particular occupation at a particular skill level have risen or fallen since the late 1990s, but you'll probably have to build the tables yourself.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #263,869

8/5/06 11:59:11 AM

Same error both sides

The question is about the new jobs...and everyone's contention is that they are all fry-cooks.

Mean or median...if it was as they contend...would both fall precipitously. Its not happening.

I'm getting headhunter calls for management level, high paying jobs. LOTS of calls. My old employer is hiring..completely new job growth...jobs from 60-100k. I'm continually told that this CAN'T be the case because all the new jobs created in this economy are low paying jobs.

The data and my experience contradict that assertion.

Is this to say, that in this population that is largely IT driven, that this situation in IT related jobs is different? I find that VERY likely and much easier to believe. Especially considering that the bubble artificially inflated the pay of some of these classifications of jobs.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #263,889

by broomberg

8/5/06 5:44:54 PM

Both sides are correct

Entry level / general tech / few day trainable skill jobs are shrinking.

The VERY entry level clerical jobs are automated out of existance. I've been doing that for years, which means fewer people get a lot more work done. I've just spend 90 minutes writing a Perl script that automates 2 full time jobs out of existance. Yup, I'm scum.

Entry level factory jobs are either mechanized or moved off-shore. Or both.

So, there are more people available at that level, which depresses wages for anyone left still employed.

Executive / management / very specialized skillset demands are growing. The pool of people that reach this level seems stagnant, which means really good people are always in demand and command a serious salary.

Post #263,982

by boxley

8/6/06 9:48:08 PM

possible nit

are the salaries growing in the bubble cities and stagnating in the less wanted realestate? You say new jersey is booming and paying legals for the work. I know I can make a lot more in NYC but my cost of living is exponentially higher there. Possibility that the figure say wages are rising is correct but rising in places where the cost of living is rising even faster?
thanx,
bill

Post #263,990

8/6/06 11:05:49 PM

other places too

Odd places...kansas, minnesota.

There are bad places too...like Cleveland that comes to mind.

My problem is with the blanket generalization that the mass of jobs are crap jobs. It can't be supported..its political pandering to the crowd that MUST find fault with an economy thats actually doing remarkably well in the face of huge enery price shocks.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #263,992

by imric

8/6/06 11:16:47 PM

P1ss on that.

Tell it to Ross.

Tell it to Riiich.

Tell it to Dave.

Glen is in fear for his future.

And it ain't the 'energy shocks' that are hurting the economy. Thos 'energy shocks' are part of the numbers that make this such a 'great economy'. After all, the energy companies are raking in record profits.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #264,001

8/7/06 12:29:16 AM

I can finger just as many

of the people I know that are doing better. I'm not saying that this economy is providing a 100% guarantee for everyone.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,011

by imric

8/7/06 7:18:24 AM

100%

Yeah - people can hit the lottery, too.

This was not even CLOSE to a list of people I know.

This was a list that both of us know. A list of people doing signifigantly worse.

For a booming economy, it sure seems that damned few are experiencing boom times.

But then, that's the point: This economy is reserved for a minority. It's an illustration that trickle-down does not work; it's not trickle-down, it's trickle upon.

We need a better paradigm. (I HATE that word)

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #264,012

8/7/06 7:33:35 AM

Let's take a poll: Better or Worse Worse

If you are making more money under the Bush Administration signify by a reply of better, if not, signify with a reply of worse.

it's not trickle-down, it's trickle upon.

Amen, Brother!

Smile,
Amy

[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]

Post #264,019

by imric

8/7/06 9:22:04 AM

8/7/06 9:24:40 AM

Better.

Now. If I don't count my failed business - I was doing MUCH better at one point before Bush, but I'm not sure that's in the scope of this argument. Were I to average things, I'd have to say worse.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Edited by imric Aug. 7, 2006, 09:23:53 AM EDT

Edited by imric Aug. 7, 2006, 09:24:40 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #264,030

8/7/06 10:05:33 AM

Considering Cost of Living even?

Vast difference between THE CITY and the city you're in now.

Understand your point though..so don't get all pissy :-)

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,085

by imric

8/7/06 1:27:32 PM

Yup.

It's cheaper to live here than ANYWHERE in the tri-state. Except maybe Hope, NJ. Maybe.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #264,021

by boxley

8/7/06 9:29:24 AM

7/8 of what I was making in 1998

of course it costs a whole lot more to live and my income taxes are 6 times as high
thanx,
bill

Post #264,023

by JayMehaffey

8/7/06 9:33:48 AM

Depends on what you mean by better

My new job has the highest take home pay of any job I have ever had. But my overall finances are worse then they where back in 2000. I've had 4 full time jobs and several part time / short contract jobs and went more then a year without any work at all. Several times I was bordering on being broke.

I'll have to hold on to this job of a couple of years just to get my finances back to where they where when Bush took office.

Jay

Post #264,028

by drewk

8/7/06 9:47:14 AM

Seconded

Months of unemployment make for big holes in the finances.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #264,119

by lincoln

8/7/06 5:10:25 PM

Thirded

Since 1/1/2001, I have been out of work cumulatively for over 25 months. My bank account reflects that fact VERY accurately.

lincoln

"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow

Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.

I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.

[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]

Post #264,031

8/7/06 10:09:42 AM

Better

and I have already stated in this thread that I would expect the population of this board to be decidedly negative simply because of the bulk of folks here happen to work or be involved in IT.

And hopefully, even they realize that expecting the 90s to continue (expecting the bubble not to burst) is a completely unrealistic expectation...even if we'd let Clinton have 2 more terms.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,034

by drewk

8/7/06 10:24:48 AM

Don't I wish

I unfortunately got into the IT bidness in mid '98 with no (documented) experience or education. By the start of 2000 I had taught myself enough PHP to have gotten a new webmaster position in the same company where I had started on helpdesk. In 2000 I started at a .com startup as a web programmer. By the time I had the experience to chase better gigs, the whole game had gone tits-up.

The fact that I'm now doing better has (IMO) little to do with the economy or the Bush administration, and everything to do with the fact that my IT career didn't start until 8 years ago. The extended periods of un-(and under-)employment along the way have blown holes in any long-term planning I might like to have done.

I don't know that I'd have been smart and disciplined enough to skip the toys had I been raking in the bubble money, but I do know that I never got the chance to find out.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #264,035

by boxley

8/7/06 10:25:53 AM

IT did have a bubble that is well burst

But construction is booming and wages are dropping here due to worker relocations, same in phoenix, florida and other booming places. Anomoly is Katrina reconstruction, wages are extremely up. Maybe up enough to offset lowering expectations elsewhere.
thanx,
bill

Post #264,039

by bionerd

8/7/06 10:38:34 AM

Worse

But I made the choice to break free from the corporate golden handcuffs to work at home. I exchanged a high salary and benefits for flexibility and autonomy.

I'm not complaining.

Post #264,057

8/7/06 11:07:39 AM

By what measure then?

Sounds to me like you made a choice and consider yourself better off.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,059

by SpiceWare

8/7/06 11:28:58 AM

While she considers herself better off,

the poll specified "making more money"

Darrell Spice, Jr.            Trendy yet complex\nPeople seek me out - though they're not sure why\n[link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare]

Post #264,060

8/7/06 11:34:16 AM

true nuff

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,061

by bionerd

8/7/06 11:36:31 AM

It's a double-edged sword.

Financially, I've never thought I could survive on the income I have now.
Now, it's not the President's fault that I got divorced and changed jobs which resulted in a huge paycut. But the bulk of my income depends on the aviation industry, which has been tanking since 9/11. I blame the current administration for this.

The other part of my income comes from the clinic. Health insurance benefits are decreasing. Out of pocket costs are increasing. Fewer insured people can afford the "luxury" of outpatient counseling, unless the situation is urgent/emergent. Our health care delivery system is a mess, and that directly impacts my ability to pull in a decent salary.

When I look at having to manage my life as a single parent,though, I gladly accept the financial hardships for the opportunity to be available to my kids. It allows me to be the kind of parent I want to be, and that keeps me sane.

Everything is a trade-off.

Post #264,062

8/7/06 11:44:48 AM

Now wait just a minute

But the bulk of my income depends on the aviation industry, which has been tanking since 9/11. I blame the current administration for this.

This I gotta hear.

The airlines are the worst managed industry segment...so much so as to be in a class by themselves.

Their problems are NOT simply related to jet fuel prices...which is about the only thing you could remotely blame on the current administration.

The fact that they actually made money once, in about 1993 (when fuel was at its lowest) and then gave all of their profits to the unions...thus sealing their fate when fuel went up would have nothing to do with it.

The fact that 3 airlines run 12 flights per day between the same 2 cities...in a market that can only support 6 flights period would also have nothing to do with it.

Your NEXT paragraph re: health benefits I could see blaming the current administration for well before I would blame the airlines on it.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #266,770

by mmoffitt

9/5/06 4:59:15 PM

Hold on there, babalooey.

Air travel is infrastructure. It is, in and of itself, an enabling service. As bad as the management of the hub/spoke system has been, it is the height of disingenousness to blame the collapse of airlines on unions. Jesus H, man, was the Kool-Aid from your Reagan Youth club that strong? The management teams have all (personally) done extremely well. As have all passengers (wanna go from ORD to MCO for $39? No problem). It's the flight attendants, pilots, mechanics and ticket agents who have taken it in the rear. And we all benefited - er, all of us that have flown commercial in that past 15 years.

You'll love this Beep. While Dub & Co certainly have not helped commercial aviation, the true culprit, the man and the administration who more than any other began swinging the rope connected to the death bell for commercial aviation was Jimmy Carter.

Post #266,777

9/5/06 6:38:07 PM

I didn't.

I blamed it on MANAGEMENT.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #266,910

by mmoffitt

9/7/06 10:35:53 AM

Last on this.

gave all of their profits to the unions...thus sealing their fate when fuel went up

Sure sounded like union bashing to me.

Post #266,921

9/7/06 12:04:46 PM

2 sides in every negotiation. Mgt caved.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,041

by SpiceWare

8/7/06 10:40:21 AM

8/7/06 10:42:43 AM

Better

As of this year I'm making more than I did in 2000, my debt is less than it's been in a few years, and we just got 401K matching.

Darrell Spice, Jr.            Trendy yet complex\nPeople seek me out - though they're not sure why\n[link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare]

Edited by SpiceWare Aug. 7, 2006, 10:42:43 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #264,051

by drewk

8/7/06 10:51:47 AM

Which all begs the question

People with an agenda love to ask, "Are you better off than you were six years ago?" If you do well at your job and get promoted, the answer will usually be "yes". But the important question -- the one that can't be answered clearly, so we don't bother trying -- is whether you're better off than you would have been if X. What X is depends on your agenda.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #264,056

8/7/06 11:06:24 AM

Re: Which all begs the question

Its seems that "those with the agenda" are telling everyone "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" (that man being every single econ indicator)...listen to me when I tell you its "really bad".

Are their troubling trends...absolutely. And I'll be first in line telling you that the loss of our heavy industry base (core manufacturing) is the single largest one. It creates the middle class void, makes it harder for undereducated and underskilled workers to find decent wage jobs. Is that Bush's fault? Hardly. Can fault be directed at either party? No. Everyone is culpable there (including our union friends).

But the current mantra is everything is crap and that all of this growth is in Mcdonald's fry cook jobs. (Dems had TV ads to that effect). What I'm saying is that their position is unsupportable given the data.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,063

by drewk

8/7/06 11:59:28 AM

I'll disagree on that

And I'll be first in line telling you that the loss of our heavy industry base (core manufacturing) is the single largest one. It creates the middle class void, makes it harder for undereducated and underskilled workers to find decent wage jobs. Is that Bush's fault? Hardly.

International trade is in a tragedy of the commons situation. If you don't chase the cheaper labor, your competitor will. You'll be out of business. I've seen interviews with CEOs who said they'd support legislation that made it harder to offshore work. They'd like to hire American, but can't stay in business unless their competitors do the same.[1]

I've said before the way to do this is not tariffs, but human rights and OSHA regulations. Don't import anything that was made under conditions that would be illegal here. Don't just export our pollution to someone else's back yard. Don't import things that were manufactured under abusive conditions. There would still be savings to be had offshoring, but not as much as there are now.

[1] I believe Larry Elison was one of the ones who said it. He said offshoring was basically "Washington's problem, not mine".

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #264,066

8/7/06 12:14:13 PM

But we don't want pollution in our yard

OK, say you have $4 billion and want to build a new refinery in the US....where are you going to build it?

The answer: no where! Because, everyone will says: NIMBY. But the world needs another refinery, so it gets built in, say, China.

Everybody wants the jobs, but nobody wants the headaches, and everybody can sue to stop it. So, there hasn't been a new refinery built in the US for something like 30 years. And the same is true of a lot of heavy industry - it's dirty, noisy, smelly, etc.

But, yes, a lot could be done, such as streamling approval. And both parties are much better at symbolic stuff, than figuring out what would really help our economy, especially if it would offend some of their key donors (e.g. trial lawyers, teacher's unions, "environmentalists", ADM, etc).

--Tony

Post #264,071

by drewk

8/7/06 12:32:53 PM

That's where it gets tricky

The easy rule is that you can't import anything made in a way that you couldn't legally make it here. What happens when it's technically legal, but due to local opposition you can't actually get the permit?

We saw this when California was having the blackouts (ignoring for the moment that Enron basically engineered them) and the governor said Texas should allow the California power grid to be connected to theirs. So after decades of fighting power plan construction, after decades of criticizing Texas for their pollution problems, when they come up short of power they're perfectly willing to use that smoggy power.

As far as I'm concerned, if you vote against a power plant, you should be first in line when rolling blackouts are needed. Vote against a textile mill, and you can't buy the cheap imported clothes.

Scaling this idea up to a national level isn't exactly easy, but as a guiding principal I like it better than just slapping tariffs on whatever we're trying to protect today.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #264,073

8/7/06 12:37:17 PM

It's not just NIMBY.

[link|http://www.naseo.org/Committees/energyproduction/oil/Refining.htm|Refining]:

The U.S. has the largest and by far the most complex refining system in the world, reflecting its being the world\ufffds largest consumer of both oil and transportation fuels (see Graph). However, only Africa has a lower average capacity per refinery than the U.S. level of 94 thousand B/D. The pressing need to minimize unit costs and refining\ufffds pronounced economies of scale strongly suggest that the number of refineries in the U.S. will continue to decline, while those that remain will continue to expand their capacity through debottlenecking.

IOW, if refining doesn't make the companies money, they won't invest in it.

:-(

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #264,068

8/7/06 12:25:02 PM

Doesn't solve core issue

There is a need to have an expanse of jobs for "unskilled" labor that gives them a chance to get futher training, advancement ops. Heavy industry provided this to this economy through and into the 80s. The net bubble masked the real impact to the economy of the failure of steel, auto, etc...by creating a buzz about themselves.

Certainly there is the competitive issue, that could be addressed with tarrifs and/or restrictions. Even given those, regulatory crap makes locating new heavy industry in this country cost prohibitive. Simply can't afford to build refinery, power gen, large scale mfg in this country anymore...regardless of labor expense because of the massive bs involved in permitting, zoning, NIMBY etc.

Another failure feeding this issue, and I've also mentioned this here before, is our failure to educate...especially in major metro areas...that leads to a class of workers that are not only unemployed...but also largely unemployable in the current economy.

Both of these issues are hardly "current".

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,081

by jake123

8/7/06 1:08:46 PM

I definitely agree with one point

the education system is badly broken. It's broken up here, too, but not nearly as badly as yours is, thanks to the provinces sharing the resources of the rich boards with the poor ones.

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #264,101

by imric

8/7/06 2:56:41 PM

What would you train them to be?

IT? Other technology?

Middle management?

Top management?

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #264,108

8/7/06 3:35:24 PM

Welders, mechanics, operators (machine), butchers, bakers

cabinet makers, etc.

There is life outside of corporate and computers. Quite a bit of it, actually.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,114

by imric

8/7/06 4:35:19 PM

ROFL! Not what I meant at all!

Manufacturing positions?

Producers of luxury goods?

Ron is a welder - he makes $15/hour. Not enough to make it by himself. MiG, Tig - heavy, light.

Ross is doing carpentry. He also does not get enough work to get by. And this is in a place where the economy is relatively good.

Machine shops? Big demand, I guess - building the machines that keep our industrial base humming along.

Mechanics? Ok - you have me there. As fewer people can afford to buy new cars, and have to keep the older ones going, that's gonna be a 'growth' industry.

Bakers? OK. Working in large bakeries at minimum wage to produce the cheap bread that the bulk of the people can afford, or higher paid bakers providing luxury items? Limited demand for the latter.

I repeat. Train them for what, exactly?

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #264,115

8/7/06 4:40:45 PM

He forgot candlestick maker too :0)

We're gonna need a lot of them when we start taxing the power grid.

Smile,
Amy

[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]

Post #264,116

8/7/06 4:51:19 PM

Now this ought to be interesting coming from me.

Are either of those 2 gents in the related union for those services?

I got mid 20's boys here laying carpets and earning a living. Home Depot will match Ron's 15 and give him benefits.

So you still contend that the only way to "make it" is to go corp or IT. (I know this isn't the case...but that seems to be the conclusion from the posts).

And, btw [link|http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_SC16000075.html|Ron's underpaid]

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,120

by drewk

8/7/06 5:10:50 PM

Problem with "earning a living"

The thing about climbing the ladder is that the it only passes overhead every so often. If you don't grab that bottom rung and start up, it may be years before you get another chance to move beyond just "earning a living".

I think that's why a lot of the people mentioned in that article way up in this thread have dropped out of the game. They know that once they accept a job that allows them to "earn a living" they're ineligible for getting back on the ladder.

Okay, the metaphor is getting clunky. But the reality is there were times when I was unemployed and I didn't even look at the listings for the entry-level positions. Sure, I could have earned a living doing them. But it would have set me back years in my career. It's perverse, but it's more acceptable to have a several-month gap on a resume than it is to have a period of underemployment.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #264,123

8/7/06 5:19:28 PM

Been there, too.

Post #264,124

8/7/06 5:19:35 PM

8/7/06 5:20:28 PM

Dupe (How'd that happen?)

Edited by Another Scott Aug. 7, 2006, 05:20:28 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #264,131

by imric

8/7/06 5:44:14 PM

Nah - my point

is that all the training in the world isn't gonna fix the economy if the paying jobs aren't there in the first place. We'll just have desparate, highly trained underemployed and underpaid people.

Further - training for management jobs is a dead-end, too. Eventually, as the ability for the masses to consume dries up, the industries that cater to our market will also dry up.

And - Unions? Like it or not, most of THEM are useless anymore. Regardless of how much you may want them to be a whipping boy. Talk to Riiich about THAT one. They take dues and bend over for management, most of the time.

And as for Ron being underpaid? Perhaps he shouldn't take the only jobs he can find, and instead should sit around doing nothing and wait for a magic job to appear that's on that chart?

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #264,121

by hnick

8/7/06 5:10:52 PM

Butchers aren't happening either...

The trend around here, anyway, is to get rid of the local meat workers (they make too much money) and centralize to one meat packer. The stores get plastic wrapped meat, which IMO is inferior to that we used to get. I still go to fish and meat mongers, so I don't buy that stuff from supermarkets. It's only a big deal to me because my wife's aunts and uncles largely worked in the meat departments of local supermarkets and got downsized or early retirement. When I knew the guys in the meat dept. by name, I used to buy from there, incidentally.

My wife now, used to be the heavy hitter in the income department for the family. She was vice-president for trading in a Cleveland company. She quit to take care of her parents at the end of their lives, and now is looking at going into retail sales in hopes of making over 25K again. She used to make about 100K over that before bonuses and wot not. We are just old and if I lose my job, I'll probably never work in tech again either.
Rising economy my ass, to coin a phrase...

my 0.02 while I can afford them.

Post #264,127

8/7/06 5:32:29 PM

Actually not as bad around here

Maybe in the grocery stores...south Philly has the food distribition and packing area that is doing pretty well...and growing. Possibly at the expense of the store employees...that I couldn't say.

Most of the folks there I knew though..have skipped...preferring to not work in the winter conditions in July. (couple reconsidered that position after last weeks 120's, though. :-))

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,130

by hnick

8/7/06 5:43:37 PM

Well, it's 2 out of 3 of the dominant chains here.

Top's and Marc's both unload and stock with min wage help. I guess I just don't have enough of a high level view of things to see the wonderful economy.

The lrpd is appropriate

The simple fact is that we cannot find enough qualified people in Cleveland (the world's dumbest leper colony) to do all the work we need done.

Post #264,084

8/7/06 1:24:32 PM

I'll second that

Our foreign trade deficit is the highest it's ever been. Who is responsible for that?

Smile,
Amy

[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]

Post #264,088

8/7/06 1:49:37 PM

You are.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,095

8/7/06 2:03:28 PM

I beg to differ.

I'm not out there buying up all the imported items I can lay my hands on. I make an effort to buy American made goods.

Besides, smart-aleck, there is such a thing as foreign-trade policy and it comes from the top.

:-P

Smile,
Amy

[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]

Post #264,102

8/7/06 3:09:39 PM

Beg all you like

Its simply not possible, no matter what the "trade policy" du jour is. As Greg pointed out, there simply isn't enough "American Made" to make a difference. Especially when you add energy into the trade imbalance.

And a crap trade balance is also one of those "not so current" items. You can certainly say this admin isn't doing what they can...but you just as certainly can't blame them for it.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,122

8/7/06 5:19:07 PM

No, I won't

You can certainly say this admin isn't doing what they can...but you just as certainly can't blame them for it.

Yes, I can.

Smile,
Amy

[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]

Post #264,126

8/7/06 5:28:14 PM

You may want

to look at some economic history then.

But...nice thing is its a free country. You can do anything you like, providing it be legal, no matter how misguided it may be ;-p

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,097

by folkert

8/7/06 2:31:23 PM

And so are you.

There really isn't ANYTHING "American Made" anymore.

Sure, Assembled in America, "manufactured in America" with Foreign Parts. It is a shame.

"Made in America" only applies to babies (but not all the times)

--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ i_wethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?

SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.

Post #264,098

8/7/06 2:42:34 PM

:-)

[link|http://travel.discovery.com/fansites/jrmia/goods/season3.html|Made in America].

;-p

It's a decent show. I've seen the [link|http://travel.discovery.com/fansites/jrmia/goods/stickley.html|Stickley Furniture] and [link|http://travel.discovery.com/fansites/jrmia/goods/sheltons.html|Shelton's Better Packages] episodes.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #264,099

8/7/06 2:44:17 PM

Which goes to the point I made to Drew

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,110

8/7/06 4:00:50 PM

"All-American" content is not smart

I want to make a good machine. I'm not going to compromise the machine design just to make it "All American". If an American company makes a quality product that fits my requirements, then there's a good chance I'll use it.

And, unlike most of you, I am involved with selecting components. Most of our parts are from the US, Japan, and Germany, with some stuff from Italy, France, Switzerland, Taiwan, and, yes, China. For example, for our needs, Panasonic's micro PLC's fit our needs (and budget) much better than anything from Allen Bradley. We use sensors from Italy that have no equivalent anywhere else in the world. And so on.

BTW, most of the world is similar, e.g. few things "Made in China" are 100% made from Chinese components. In disk drives, for example, Hutchinson (USA) makes about 70% of the suspensions (and they are made in the US) while a Japanese makes most of the spindle motors. So a disk drive may be assembled in China or Singapore, but its parts come from all over the world, including the US.

--Tony

Post #264,111

8/7/06 4:04:03 PM

Actually, iirc

Hutchinson is owned by the French. :-)

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,112

8/7/06 4:18:34 PM

No, public company on the NASDAQ

[link|http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HTCH&script=2100|http://www.corporate...=HTCH&script=2100]

Post #264,113

8/7/06 4:33:43 PM

ok. thought it was

[link|http://www.hutchinsonrubber.com/gb/index/index.asp|these guys]

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,100

by imric

8/7/06 2:50:50 PM

The gains made by the few bring the averages up.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #264,106

8/7/06 3:26:03 PM

Thats what the other link was for

because that isn't supported by the data either.

Hell, if you eliminate the outliers (those obscene CEO numbers made by about 6 guys) and use just base CEO compensation..its only up about 3 and a half percent. Same as everyone else.

So again...your perception...the same as Box...is your reality. The data doesn't support it.

Add them back and you get things like the guy at Cap One that made almost 300million. 7 million salary and a quarter billion in stock options he had to sell or lose.

Is that ridiculous. Sure. But so is A-Rod making $1million per RBI and Howard Stern's deal with the sat radio folks.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #264,109

by imric

8/7/06 3:59:29 PM

No?

So - the people in the bottom 10% increased their savings by the same percentage as the people in the top 10%? A rising tide floats all boats, eh?

No?

So then at least the people in the bottom 10% didn't lose ground, right?

No?

I don't give a tinker's damn about trivial exceptions on either end - and you know it.

And - it ain't just my reality. It's the reality of a helluva lot of people. If more people are complaining than cheering - it probably isn't all sunshine and roses. You might want to take a look at the reports, and not just imply that those people are living in their own (incorrect) reality.

You might not like the the surprise when your bubble bursts and you end up in their shoes.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #264,055

by Yendor

8/7/06 10:57:00 AM

Depends on your take of the situation...

I'm divorced from the woman I was married to in 2000: better.
I'm remarried to a new woman whom I love, and I've got two kids: better.
I'm earning more now than I was in '00: better.
I work from home and don't have to commute anywhere: much better, especially given gas prices (and especially especially given today's news about the AK pipeline.)
I've got more debt today than I did in '00 (due in no small part to being unemployed for 6 or 8 months and living on plastic): worse.
I haven't had a 401k that provides matching since '00, either: worse.

Here's to mortgaging the future to live in the present...

-YendorMike

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

Post #264,067

by Silverlock

8/7/06 12:17:18 PM

Worse. Much worse.

-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.

Post #264,134

by tuberculosis

8/7/06 6:24:18 PM

Worse

Down 30% in raw dollars - no tweaks to account for inflation, rise in home prices, etc.

Change measure:

Salary as median home price multiple: Gone from 1/2 to 1/5 in ten years.

Waaaaay fuckin' worse.

Post #264,142