Israel must be allowed to defend itself....

Post #261,929 by Simon_Jester 7/17/06 10:01:29 AM Reply	Israel must be allowed to defend itself.... the US would do the same thing. The real question is why should the US still support Israel if it is able to defend itself?
Post #262,031 by bluke 7/18/06 9:29:58 AM Reply	What are you trying to say? The fact is that Iran is behind this. Iran is trying to create a Shiite crescent in the Middle East which would be a very worrisome development for the US. The US is very concerned about Iran's influence in Iraq, nuclear weapons development, and it's control of massive oil reserves. A Shiite controlled Lebanon allied with Iran is not in the US's interests. Therefore, Israel's war against Hezbollah is very much serving the interests of the US.
Post #262,036 by Simon_Jester 7/18/06 10:20:56 AM 7/18/06 10:21:35 AM Reply	Please do not define America's interest. Your argument is that Israel is a grown-up country that has the right to defend itself. I agree. What I do not understand is why my tax dollars are going to support a "grown-up country". If Israel is strong enough to defend itself and stand on it's own two feet, why does it need our help? If it does need our help...then we get a say in matters. (And I'm not the only one saying this....) "I'm not going to try to judge each and every Israeli operation or each and every Israeli attack," Ms. Rice said the morning after seven Canadians, including four children, were killed by Israeli warplanes. But, she added, "We have said to Prime Minister [Ehud] Olmert and to other Israelis that we are deeply concerned about the effect on innocent civilians." [link\|http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060718.MIDEASTUS18/TPStory/TPInternational/Africa/\| Source ] Edited by Simon_Jester July 18, 2006, 10:21:35 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #262,039 by bluke 7/18/06 11:35:13 AM 7/18/06 11:40:17 AM Reply	You can say that about half the countries in the world Let's see, off the top of my head there are American troops in Germany Japan, Korea and many other places. all grown up countries. Last I checked there were no US troops in or defending Israel directly. Yes, the US gives Israel money for defense as it does many other countries (such as Egypt which is openly anti-American), but in fact, most of the money goes back to the US in the form of arms purchases from US companies. I happen to think (along with many othersin Israel) that Israel would be better off getting no American money, the Israeli economy is certainly strong off to handle that and it would remove exactly this claim that you have. Edited by bluke July 18, 2006, 11:40:17 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #262,053 by Simon_Jester 7/18/06 1:47:22 PM Reply	Great, we're in agreement.
Post #262,058 by ben_tilly 7/18/06 2:28:47 PM Reply	Here's a theory for you If the USA wasn't supporting Israel, it would be a lot easier for us to be allied with countries like Iran. Right now they can't easily be our friends because we're their enemy's friend. In fact even if Israel wants to help us, they can't. The political fallout from, for instance, accepting Israeli help in Iraq makes that untenable for us. How cheap would it be to pull the plug on Israel? It wouldn't actually cost us money, we'd just have to stop giving money to a country that routinely conducts espionage and spying operations against us. One that gives us not a heck of a lot in return. Want a scary thought? One of the big reasons why the USA doesn't do that is that the House of Saud doesn't want us to. Why not? Well the existence of Israel provides them a convenient rallying cry. Down with the Jews! Nice way to distract the populace from where the oil money (doesn't) go. We have other reasons, such as a powerful voting block of fundamentalist Christians who want to see Israel start WW III. But I suspect that this one is a big one. Your job is therefore to be hated throughout the Middle East. You're doing a good job. Sometimes some of you die. Sometimes you kick around some unimportant countries as a result. But on the whole the Jews remain what you've been for the last thousand years - convenient scapegoats for those in power. Cheers, Ben a very rich person should leave his kids enough to do anything but not enough to do nothing. -- Warren Buffett
Post #262,059 by boxley 7/18/06 2:33:06 PM Reply	you been reading harryharrison again? Pyrrus comes to mind Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #262,060 by ben_tilly 7/18/06 2:45:32 PM Reply	Nope, Greg Palast's Armed Madhouse. Recommended. He documents the internal conflict between the neocons and big oil about Iraq. The neocons want to privatize oil so tons will flood out and collapse the price of oil. Big oil wants to keep Iraq's oil in the ground so oil's price skyrockets. Both had secret invasion plans for Iraq which he has copies of. (Big Oil's was harder to get, but once he filed a freedom of information request with the title and author, he got it.) The neocons got their way on most things, but as your gas pump shows, big oil has proven to have sharper knives. Lots of good information and ugly history. He doesn't talk much about Israel's role in all of this, but it dovetails very well with [link\|http://philip.greenspun.com/politics/israel/\|Philip Greenspun's take on Israel]. So I combined the two and you got that post that I just wrote. Cheers, Ben a very rich person should leave his kids enough to do anything but not enough to do nothing. -- Warren Buffett

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