Personally, I feel like I am in the wayback machine.

I'd like to point you to some design that are very nice: [link|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.saletto.com/Peppers/sample.css|Peppers], [link|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://hamrai.tollfreepage.com/waverly.css|Waverly], [link|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.manuelbieh.de/kram/dortmund-ubahn.css|Subway Station], [link|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.ic-more.com/zen/sample.css|A Corporate Feel], [link|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/094/094.css|Deco], [link|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.pixelcarnage.com/projects/raystarelite/styles/screen.css|Raystar], [link|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://previews.redrotate.de/csszengarden_spider/sample.css|Spider]

This is just to point a few out.

I'd like to thank the CSS Zen Garden.

edit: I'd like to remind you when going to CSS Zen Garden, the only difference in the different themes is the css. The [link|http://csszengarden.com/zengarden-sample.html|HTML/XHTML] is all the same. This makes the point that CSS is the brush of an artist, whether a good artist or bad, still CSS is divorced from the content, used only for the presentation.

There are some pretty wicked COOL and wicked BAD and Wicked TERRIBLE CSS desins there. The point is to show the flexibility to completely/radically change a site with one click. Combine that with AJAX, you've got a whole new ball of wax that many people can't comprehend.

P.S. I'd agree that Subway Station is a bad choice for EVERYONE, but it was presented in a general context for showing an example of a well layed out site. Though it being designed for a much wider screen than *MANY* people have. I still prefer sites designs with NO Specific screen size in mind, that way the presentation isn't ruined in not thought of ways.

[link|http://www.mr-anderson.net/objclips/|http://www.mr-anderson.net/objclips/]

Looks pretty much the same in Firefox, IE, and Safari, excepting that the code section font looks like ass in Safari because it doesn't seem to support monospace font families properly.

My suggestion: break the main page up so you have "Intro", "Examples", "FAQ", and "Download" (with production and beta releases, both binary and source, MD5 signatures, etc., like a proper OSS site) and put links to them in the (rudimentary) menu bar on the left. Dump the inline images for the "Who's Using It" and "Books" sections, too, or float them off to the right or something. Probably a "Links" section in the menu as well with all the fscript links and so on.

And dump that HTML generator you're using... holy crying whitespace does it do a crappy job. :-P I didn't do too much repair because I didn't want to spend more than 20 minutes on it.

Post #247,684 by folkert 3/12/06 10:29:01 PM 3/13/06 9:46:35 AM Reply	Personally, I feel like I am in the wayback machine. I'd like to point you to some design that are very nice: [link\|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.saletto.com/Peppers/sample.css\|Peppers], [link\|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://hamrai.tollfreepage.com/waverly.css\|Waverly], [link\|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.manuelbieh.de/kram/dortmund-ubahn.css\|Subway Station], [link\|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.ic-more.com/zen/sample.css\|A Corporate Feel], [link\|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/094/094.css\|Deco], [link\|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.pixelcarnage.com/projects/raystarelite/styles/screen.css\|Raystar], [link\|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://previews.redrotate.de/csszengarden_spider/sample.css\|Spider] This is just to point a few out. I'd like to thank the CSS Zen Garden. edit: I'd like to remind you when going to CSS Zen Garden, the only difference in the different themes is the css. The [link\|http://csszengarden.com/zengarden-sample.html\|HTML/XHTML] is all the same. This makes the point that CSS is the brush of an artist, whether a good artist or bad, still CSS is divorced from the content, used only for the presentation. There are some pretty wicked COOL and wicked BAD and Wicked TERRIBLE CSS desins there. The point is to show the flexibility to completely/radically change a site with one click. Combine that with AJAX, you've got a whole new ball of wax that many people can't comprehend. P.S. I'd agree that Subway Station is a bad choice for EVERYONE, but it was presented in a general context for showing an example of a well layed out site. Though it being designed for a much wider screen than MANY people have. I still prefer sites designs with NO Specific screen size in mind, that way the presentation isn't ruined in not thought of ways. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned. Edited by folkert March 13, 2006, 09:46:35 AM EST Expand All History
Post #247,685 by Another Scott 3/12/06 11:02:36 PM Reply	Neat. Dave seems to know what he's doing.
Post #247,689 by Yendor 3/12/06 11:39:11 PM Reply	OMFG, that Mozart one is... ...fucking [link\|http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/189/189.css&page=0\|COOL-ASS SHIT]. () () Couldn't put that in the title. -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #247,690 by drewk 3/12/06 11:43:34 PM Reply	Diary is pretty cool, too === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #247,692 by tuberculosis 3/12/06 11:47:46 PM 8/21/07 6:30:19 AM Reply	Black - its all black "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:30:19 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #247,703 by bepatient 3/13/06 6:34:05 AM Reply	None more black If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #247,691 by tuberculosis 3/12/06 11:44:20 PM 8/21/07 6:30:17 AM Reply	Subway Station is a nightmare too wide - no horizontal scroll bar becomes available - totally unreadable. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:30:17 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #247,693 by Another Scott 3/12/06 11:57:10 PM Reply	Looks fine at 1400x1050. Can see it would be problematic...
Post #247,807 by scoenye 3/13/06 6:51:03 PM Reply	Going OT perhaps, but most of those are terrible When the CSS Zen Garden first came out, I thought most of the participants were cheating, if not against the letter, then at least against the spirit of the contest. From looking at these examples, it doesn't look like things have improved. How? Almost every single one uses display:none to disable whole chunks of HTML and replace it with bitmapped rendering of the text. IMHO, that invalidates the "still CSS is divorced from the content, used only for the presentation" claim as it now puts the content squarely on the layout side.
Post #247,813 by tuberculosis 3/13/06 7:45:52 PM 8/21/07 6:32:09 AM Reply	I have begun soliciting quotes from real designers as I clearly have not talent for it. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:32:09 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #247,843 by admin 3/13/06 10:32:11 PM Reply	Re: I have begun soliciting quotes [link\|http://www.mr-anderson.net/objclips/\|http://www.mr-anderson.net/objclips/] Looks pretty much the same in Firefox, IE, and Safari, excepting that the code section font looks like ass in Safari because it doesn't seem to support monospace font families properly. My suggestion: break the main page up so you have "Intro", "Examples", "FAQ", and "Download" (with production and beta releases, both binary and source, MD5 signatures, etc., like a proper OSS site) and put links to them in the (rudimentary) menu bar on the left. Dump the inline images for the "Who's Using It" and "Books" sections, too, or float them off to the right or something. Probably a "Links" section in the menu as well with all the fscript links and so on. And dump that HTML generator you're using... holy crying whitespace does it do a crappy job. :-P I didn't do too much repair because I didn't want to spend more than 20 minutes on it. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #247,863 by tuberculosis 3/14/06 1:23:52 AM 8/21/07 6:34:43 AM Reply	So where did you get the art? Because I don't want any issues with art "borrowing". Also, which graphics editor did you use? It seems to me that the nifty low end easy art tools we used to have on the Mac have gone by the wayside - either you have to bite the bullet and learn something fairly complex, or you get really lame paint tools with no transparency controls. The "HTML generator" is TextEdit. It was a text document I just "saved as HTML" one day and have been hacking on since. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:34:43 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #247,884 by pwhysall 3/14/06 7:23:47 AM Reply	Fails W3 validation, though I leave it to your judgment whether the 13 errors are significant or not. [link\|http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mr-anderson.net%2Fobjclips%2F\|http://validator.w3....net%2Fobjclips%2F] Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #247,888 by admin 3/14/06 8:47:37 AM Reply	Like I said, it needs some work. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #247,889 by pwhysall 3/14/06 8:50:22 AM Reply	Fairy nuff. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #247,887 by admin 3/14/06 8:46:04 AM Reply	Re: So where did you get the art? It's Google Image. I used GIMP. But basically all you need to do is take a picture of a circuit board, blur it (Gaussian blur), tilt it (map object), and fade the end (transparent eraser). I figured it was something like TextEdit, given the "Cocoa HTML Generator" meta tag. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #247,899 by rcareaga 3/14/06 10:00:10 AM Reply	Arts and the Mac An excellent source for art (photo, illustration & animation) is [link\|http://www.istockphoto.com/index.php\|iStockphoto]. Prices begin at a buck per image (lo-res, suitable for the sort of use you have in mind), to three and five dollars for medium and high, respectively. Most of the "Diebold Variations" were built around iStock pictures. As to "low end easy art tools," if I didn't already own Photoshop I would make haste to acquire "Photoshop Elements" for about a c-note—by all accounts it's an excellent value (unlike the execrable "Photoshop LE" of the 1990s), and it would certainly suffice for anything you might essay in the web graphic line. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #247,900 by pwhysall 3/14/06 10:05:12 AM Reply	Photoshop Elements 3 is excellent I have the Mac version (about forty of my English pounds) and it's just the daddy for low-end image work. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #247,932 by tuberculosis 3/14/06 4:34:05 PM 8/21/07 6:35:51 AM Reply	Two good tips - I'll give it a look "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:35:51 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #247,883 by pwhysall 3/14/06 7:22:10 AM Reply	Ping ubernostrum He's good at it, and he's a purist when it comes to Doing It Right. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #248,113 by tuberculosis 3/16/06 2:01:35 PM 8/21/07 6:39:23 AM Reply	This might be the answer [link\|http://www.freewebsitetemplates.com/\|http://www.freewebsitetemplates.com/] [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer] Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:39:23 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #248,118 by boxley 3/16/06 2:27:19 PM Reply	terms of service are a beatch, I wouldnt use it Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #248,120 by tuberculosis 3/16/06 2:28:14 PM 8/21/07 6:39:32 AM Reply	There are many more like that around [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer] Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:39:32 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #248,123 by admin 3/16/06 2:34:14 PM Reply	Yes, because... ... the free one I did for you suxsomuch. :-P Make sure the free one has CSS for code sections, etc. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #248,126 by tuberculosis 3/16/06 3:00:07 PM 8/21/07 6:39:40 AM Reply	Its kind of .... unfinished. [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer] Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:39:40 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #248,128 by admin 3/16/06 3:03:35 PM Reply	Er, yeah... that was the point. Here's a design, here's where it's insufficient, here's the stuff you still need to do. It's still a step up from the current one, IMO. But hey, you're welcome for attempting to help you at all, eh? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #248,131 by tuberculosis 3/16/06 3:39:19 PM 8/21/07 6:39:53 AM Reply	It is a step up - thanks. [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer] Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:39:53 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #248,129 by pwhysall 3/16/06 3:07:42 PM Reply	So finish it, you ingrate. Why would anyone do anything for you, if that's the thanks they get? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #248,130 by tuberculosis 3/16/06 3:37:04 PM 8/21/07 6:39:51 AM Reply	'cause I have no faith in my ability to take it there? I'll give it a bang this weekend, but seriously I have not faith in my ability to not fuck it up. [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer] Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:39:51 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #248,132 by Another Scott 3/16/06 3:41:17 PM Reply	I'm sure you know we love critiquing things. We'll help you get it right. Cheers, Scott.
Post #248,133 by tuberculosis 3/16/06 3:55:37 PM 8/21/07 6:39:55 AM Reply	Yeah, but this is beginning to resemble the flame forum Anyhow, I am using Scott's page for now, but it is still rough in a few spots (as one would expect with 20 minutes of work). I don't have time to finish it just now as I'm a bit busy fending off the sharks. [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer] Edited by tuberculosis March 16, 2006, 04:00:07 PM EST Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:39:55 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #248,139 by Another Scott 3/16/06 4:59:23 PM Reply	Understood.
Post #248,183 by pwhysall 3/17/06 7:12:26 AM Reply	There's a reason for that. When someone takes time out to do something for you, at no benefit to themselves, unasked, then it's mighty churlish to turn round and say "that's not good enough". The correct response is "cheers! Thanks muchly!" and then you go off and use it or not as you see fit. I can't believe that I'm actually explaining this. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #248,228 by folkert 3/17/06 11:13:17 AM Reply	Cheers! Thanks muchly! stupid git /me hopes Ptr knows this is a Joke. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #248,261 by scoenye 3/17/06 1:34:45 PM Reply	This one is fully operational Spacetelescope.org's [link\|http://www.spacetelescope.org/about/further_information/techdocs/pdf/simplicity.pdf\|Simplicity] design. You may have to supply your own art, but there's not really much of it. It also still sins against the "don't use tables for layout rule" but it doesn't seem to go a million levels deep either.

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