Post #244,938
2/16/06 11:03:36 AM
|
Overly simplistic answer
As Ben has stated. A non-smoking bar cannot compete with smoking bars. Almost every group will contain smokers and non-smokers. Peer pressure to be part of the group will force many, not all, non-smokers to visit the smoker's bar to be part of the group.
With a ban, business would increase because now all members of the group can attend.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
|
Post #244,945
2/16/06 11:17:39 AM
|
If it doesn't go both ways, the 'reasoning' is faulty.
The peer pressure wouldn't exist to go to non-smoking bars? Gee - non-smokers have a right and a need to hang out with smokers, but smokers don't want to hang out with non-smokers? HOSRECRAP. Down here in Georgia, there are both smoking and non-smoking bars. I go to both. Non-smokers go to both. If a non-smoker doesn't want to go to a smoking bar they go to a non-smoking bar, and *shock* I *shock* have gone with them. I KNOW the arguments the anti-smokers are making are horsecrap; I KNOW non-smoking bars can and DO coexist profitably with smoking bars; I KNOW that choice works.
This 'peer pressure'/networking/whatever-forces-nonsmokers-to-congregate-where-smokers-go-to-relax is made up by those that want to force their choices on others - it's a rationalisation, pure and simple. And not even a good one.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #244,952
2/16/06 11:39:19 AM
|
I don't know why Georgia is different than NYC.
But in NYC I never heard about any non-smoking bars before the ban went into effect.
I don't know what the situation was in California.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
|
Post #244,956
2/16/06 11:44:43 AM
|
Me neither.
And it makes me chuckle to think that Georgians are more reasonable and rational on this issue than others. It truly does.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #244,963
2/16/06 11:52:43 AM
|
I have a strong suspicion that I know the answer
And it is that non-smoking bars are forced to be non-smoking by law.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
|
Post #244,968
2/16/06 11:59:14 AM
|
*shrug* They choose their customer base.
As it should be.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #244,986
2/16/06 1:34:35 PM
|
Do you have any idea how ironic this is?
Your example of businesses being reasonable and having smoking+nonsmoking establishments coexisting turned out to not be the result of businesses making a free choice. Instead it was the result of businesses being coerced into having to make that choice.
And you don't seem to have noticed that this fact completely undermines your assertion that Georgia is a counterexample to what I was saying.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
|
Post #244,989
2/16/06 1:56:42 PM
|
Not at all - well, sort of.
The businesses ARE choosing freely to be a smoking or non-smoking establishment. They are choosing their customer base, they are NOT going under and the 'network effect' had basically zero effect on the success of non-smoking places. An outright ban was not necessary to give both smokers and non-smokers places they could go.
The choice itself was forced on them though - you are right about that.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #244,995
2/16/06 2:28:14 PM
|
The network effect WAS there.
Because those places wouldn't be non-smoking without the choice being forced on them.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
|
Post #244,999
2/16/06 2:57:48 PM
|
So -
The effect that a non-smoking bar would be untenable (and would require a ban of smoking to exist) because the nonsmokers would want to go to the bars with the smokers in them (the smokers would not go into the bars that had a non-smoking policy even though THEIR friends were there for some reason) was negated because bars were forced to be smoking or non-smoking. Huh? A ban of smoking was NOT necessary for non-smoking bars to exist, the government didn't have to force them to choose the nonsmoking option over the smoking option (they just chose WHICH customer base they wanted to serve); and smokers DO go to non-smoking bars (even though they don't smoke inside) to hang out with their friends.
Network what?
I'll say it again - the 'network effect' in this case is a rationalisation for people that want to force their own choices on others.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #245,000
2/16/06 3:09:56 PM
|
Refuse to see it all you want.
The bars wouldn't have gone non-smoking without the law. YOU admitted this.
That's the network effect in action. Call it what you want, but that's what it is.
Ben has already pointed out why this works in this counter-intuitive way, regardless of demand, several times in a much clearer fashion than my initial attempts.
Rationalize all you want, that's how it works.
Sheesh.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
|
Post #245,014
2/16/06 4:16:13 PM
|
Of course that's the ONLY explanation, right?
Flat out conservatism could NEVER be the reason. And restaurant/bars are such high-margin money machines that change isn't really a risk, right?
I point out that the so-called 'network effect', when actually tested, doesn't happen. You say that because the change had to forced proves its real.
I point out that when choice exists, the network effect doesn't.
You say the 'network effect' prevents 'choice'. The 'lack of choice' proves the 'network effect'.
IOW:
if A, ~B
if ~B, A
so -
If A, A
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #245,019
2/16/06 4:54:37 PM
|
Conservatism and risk are part of it.
And I'm done trying to get you to see this.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
|
Post #245,026
2/16/06 5:12:35 PM
|
*shrug*
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #245,025
2/16/06 5:10:36 PM
|
I'm not interested in arguing this to the ground
You're right that it wasn't an outright ban.
You're right that something short of an outright ban gives non-smokers somewhere to go.
You're right that the compromise gives smokers somewhere to be.
I'm glad to have established so many areas of agreement. I'm willing to let the remaining areas drop.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
|
Post #245,027
2/16/06 5:15:54 PM
|
*smile* Sounds good. Me too.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
