I have a strong suspicion that I know the answer

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Post #244,963

by ben_tilly

2/16/06 11:52:43 AM

I have a strong suspicion that I know the answer

And it is that non-smoking bars are forced to be non-smoking by law.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #244,968

by imric

2/16/06 11:59:14 AM

*shrug* They choose their customer base.

As it should be.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #244,986

by ben_tilly

2/16/06 1:34:35 PM

Do you have any idea how ironic this is?

Your example of businesses being reasonable and having smoking+nonsmoking establishments coexisting turned out to not be the result of businesses making a free choice. Instead it was the result of businesses being coerced into having to make that choice.

And you don't seem to have noticed that this fact completely undermines your assertion that Georgia is a counterexample to what I was saying.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #244,989

by imric

2/16/06 1:56:42 PM

Not at all - well, sort of.

The businesses ARE choosing freely to be a smoking or non-smoking establishment. They are choosing their customer base, they are NOT going under and the 'network effect' had basically zero effect on the success of non-smoking places. An outright ban was not necessary to give both smokers and non-smokers places they could go.

The choice itself was forced on them though - you are right about that.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #244,995

by admin

2/16/06 2:28:14 PM

The network effect WAS there.

Because those places wouldn't be non-smoking without the choice being forced on them.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #244,999

by imric

2/16/06 2:57:48 PM

So -

The effect that a non-smoking bar would be untenable (and would require a ban of smoking to exist) because the nonsmokers would want to go to the bars with the smokers in them (the smokers would not go into the bars that had a non-smoking policy even though THEIR friends were there for some reason) was negated because bars were forced to be smoking or non-smoking. Huh? A ban of smoking was NOT necessary for non-smoking bars to exist, the government didn't have to force them to choose the nonsmoking option over the smoking option (they just chose WHICH customer base they wanted to serve); and smokers DO go to non-smoking bars (even though they don't smoke inside) to hang out with their friends.

Network what?

I'll say it again - the 'network effect' in this case is a rationalisation for people that want to force their own choices on others.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #245,000

by admin

2/16/06 3:09:56 PM

Refuse to see it all you want.

The bars wouldn't have gone non-smoking without the law. YOU admitted this.

That's the network effect in action. Call it what you want, but that's what it is.

Ben has already pointed out why this works in this counter-intuitive way, regardless of demand, several times in a much clearer fashion than my initial attempts.

Rationalize all you want, that's how it works.

Sheesh.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #245,014

by imric

2/16/06 4:16:13 PM

Of course that's the ONLY explanation, right?

Flat out conservatism could NEVER be the reason. And restaurant/bars are such high-margin money machines that change isn't really a risk, right?

I point out that the so-called 'network effect', when actually tested, doesn't happen. You say that because the change had to forced proves its real.

I point out that when choice exists, the network effect doesn't.

You say the 'network effect' prevents 'choice'. The 'lack of choice' proves the 'network effect'.

IOW:
if A, ~B
if ~B, A
so -
If A, A

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #245,019

by admin

2/16/06 4:54:37 PM

Conservatism and risk are part of it.

And I'm done trying to get you to see this.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #245,026

by imric

2/16/06 5:12:35 PM

*shrug*

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #245,025

by ben_tilly

2/16/06 5:10:36 PM

I'm not interested in arguing this to the ground

You're right that it wasn't an outright ban.

You're right that something short of an outright ban gives non-smokers somewhere to go.

You're right that the compromise gives smokers somewhere to be.

I'm glad to have established so many areas of agreement. I'm willing to let the remaining areas drop.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #245,027

by imric

2/16/06 5:15:54 PM

*smile* Sounds good. Me too.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Peter's pub experiences will change - (ben_tilly) - (150) - Feb. 14, 2006, 09:57:31 PM EST

Works for me - (pwhysall) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 01:45:14 AM EST

Toronto has had it for a couple of years - (lister) - (5) - Feb. 15, 2006, 12:13:48 PM EST

Come to Kingston - (jake123) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:42:41 PM EST

Been there, far drive - (lister) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:11:18 PM EST

Well, let me know the next time you're coming through - (jake123) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 07:07:02 PM EST

Doing both in June - (lister) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:01:41 AM EST

That'll probably be in Kingston - (jake123) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:46:47 PM EST

Hurrah! Anything to reduce the evil weed. -NT - (warmachine) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:32:31 AM EST

Next sins, in order: alcohol, seduction, evangelizing . . . -NT - (Ashton) - (140) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:40:23 AM EST

Hey, I'm fine with people SMOKING tobacco... - (inthane-chan) - (139) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:25:11 AM EST

Supply & Demand. - (imric) - (137) - Feb. 15, 2006, 12:05:41 PM EST

That doesn't work. - (admin) - (113) - Feb. 15, 2006, 12:29:44 PM EST

Same damned thing. - (imric) - (112) - Feb. 15, 2006, 01:39:09 PM EST

Two things are working against that. - (admin) - (62) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:04:06 PM EST

For the record, yes - (drewk) - (50) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:37:10 PM EST

Re: For the record, yes - (admin) - (49) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:56:27 PM EST

Nanny state - (drewk) - (47) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:17:22 PM EST

Basic public health and safety isn't nannying. - (admin) - (38) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:27:39 PM EST

I'm reminded of an old saying - (drewk) - (37) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:41:09 PM EST

Actually in Helena... - (admin) - (31) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:28:16 PM EST

60% of all heart attacks are due to 2nd hand smoke? - (boxley) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:06:34 PM EST

Wait, I missed something - (drewk) - (18) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:09:19 PM EST

Dunno, why don't they? - (admin) - (17) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:17:37 PM EST

So they *do* exist - (drewk) - (16) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:35:39 PM EST

Re: So they *do* exist - (admin) - (15) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:52:36 PM EST

Why not? - (drewk) - (14) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:59:02 PM EST

Many times it easier to breathe - (jbrabeck) - (12) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:02:44 PM EST

So *you* would rather breathe smoke than hear whining - (drewk) - (11) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:10:47 PM EST

Hell no - (jbrabeck) - (10) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:45:19 AM EST

And you'd create a drug war to make our existing one... - (ben_tilly) - (9) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:57:50 AM EST

I didn't say make it illegal.... - (jbrabeck) - (8) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:06:43 AM EST

It's already cheaper to smuggle... - (ben_tilly) - (7) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:37:10 AM EST

now? I can mail order 4 cartons a month from Israel -NT - (boxley) - (6) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:40:31 AM EST

Now. - (jake123) - (5) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:53:29 PM EST

Canada's taxes are higher than US taxes - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:26:17 PM EST

do people around you go to Indian Smokeshops? - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:29:19 PM EST

Not that I know of. -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:38:03 PM EST

Not true when it comes to smokes - (jake123) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 03:45:31 PM EST

Good to know. My impression was out of date. -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:05:46 PM EST

The restaurant was always busy before the ban. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:03:03 PM EST

funny I dont even see a listing for that here - (boxley) - (9) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:10:17 PM EST

... - (admin) - (8) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:21:06 PM EST

doesnt mention second hand anything - (boxley) - (7) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:36:24 PM EST

Oh, right, because smoke magically only affects the smoker. - (admin) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:50:54 PM EST

That's new to me - (drewk) - (5) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:58:07 PM EST

Re: That's new to me - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:01:47 PM EST

Not at all the same - (drewk) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:09:40 PM EST

Uh, no. - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:14:52 PM EST

I'm the sophist? - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:23:49 PM EST

Re: I'm the sophist? - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:32:25 PM EST

Ah.. It's-Good-for-You -- is Enough: OK, suppose we PROVED - (Ashton) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:04:11 PM EST

I don't get cancer if you eat a Big Mac - (lister) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:49:22 PM EST

Right back at you. - (imric) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:12:23 PM EST

You do pay for his decrease in health - (bepatient) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:44:23 PM EST

<smack location=back_of_head /> -NT - (jb4) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:03:28 AM EST

Hey - (bepatient) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:24:22 PM EST

On fire codes and such... - (Another Scott) - (7) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:31:28 PM EST

Insurance - (drewk) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:01:03 PM EST

Comes under the category of "reasonable" - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:13:46 PM EST

You just jumped the shark - (drewk) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:30:03 PM EST

WTF? - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:40:28 PM EST

Do you support random roadblocks? - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:53:34 PM EST

No. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:16:21 PM EST

That's too simplistic. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:17:41 PM EST

Beat me to it...Drook, what he said! -NT - (jb4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:21:38 PM EST

I was poor, true. Desparate times DO require desparate - (imric) - (10) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:57:57 PM EST

Finally, a reasonable counter-suggestion - (admin) - (9) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:34:55 PM EST

How about peanuts? - (drewk) - (8) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:45:21 PM EST

Thats why you get pretzels on planes now. -NT - (bepatient) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:46:54 PM EST

I thought it was because the pretzels are cheaper. -NT - (Simon_Jester) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:33:16 PM EST

Already have "stink" restrictions in many places. - (jbrabeck) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:57:30 PM EST

They don't allow peanuts in the schools here. - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:58:18 PM EST

Not playing games, making a point - (drewk) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:07:36 PM EST

Re: Not playing games, making a point - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:18:51 PM EST

Those offended by the cartoons would say that's what matters - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:28:23 PM EST

Shrug. It's all in your viewpoint. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:34:26 PM EST

Capitalism is imperfect - (ben_tilly) - (48) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:01:08 PM EST

Capitalism and libertarianism are orthogonal - (drewk) - (47) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:12:03 PM EST

I wasn't saying what was right - (ben_tilly) - (46) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:39:30 PM EST

Not my point - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:49:46 PM EST

And completely orthogonal to mine - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:02:42 PM EST

I am a moderate as a Libertarian - (imric) - (43) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:11:48 PM EST

I'm not arguing for or against this change - (ben_tilly) - (42) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:46:57 PM EST

"That can be a losing economic idea" - (imric) - (39) - Feb. 16, 2006, 07:23:11 AM EST

All society is groups forcing their choices on others - (pwhysall) - (33) - Feb. 16, 2006, 07:35:29 AM EST

:-) ObMythbusters aside. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 16, 2006, 07:52:46 AM EST

Thats why yer missus will be wearing a burka in 20 years -NT - (boxley) - Feb. 16, 2006, 08:35:20 AM EST

Not the same - (drewk) - (21) - Feb. 16, 2006, 08:59:33 AM EST

Re: Not the same - (pwhysall) - (20) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:06:01 AM EST

So go find a place that doesn't allow smoking. - (imric) - (16) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:13:31 AM EST

Overly simplistic answer - (jbrabeck) - (15) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:03:36 AM EST

If it doesn't go both ways, the 'reasoning' is faulty. - (imric) - (14) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:17:39 AM EST

I don't know why Georgia is different than NYC. - (ben_tilly) - (13) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:39:19 AM EST

Me neither. - (imric) - (12) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:44:43 AM EST

I have a strong suspicion that I know the answer - (ben_tilly) - (11) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:52:43 AM EST

*shrug* They choose their customer base. - (imric) - (10) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:59:14 AM EST

Do you have any idea how ironic this is? - (ben_tilly) - (9) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:34:35 PM EST

Not at all - well, sort of. - (imric) - (8) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:56:42 PM EST

The network effect WAS there. - (admin) - (5) - Feb. 16, 2006, 02:28:14 PM EST

So - - (imric) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 02:57:48 PM EST

Refuse to see it all you want. - (admin) - (3) - Feb. 16, 2006, 03:09:56 PM EST

Of course that's the ONLY explanation, right? - (imric) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 04:16:13 PM EST

Conservatism and risk are part of it. - (admin) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 04:54:37 PM EST

*shrug* -NT - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:12:35 PM EST

I'm not interested in arguing this to the ground - (ben_tilly) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:10:36 PM EST

*smile* Sounds good. Me too. -NT - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:15:54 PM EST

Try again - (drewk) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:20:49 AM EST

Yes, but it SHOULD be legal! - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:49:08 PM EST

One thing at a time - (drewk) - Feb. 16, 2006, 06:15:07 PM EST

Still avoiding it, huh. - (imric) - (8) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:01:09 AM EST

You have a place. - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:06:35 AM EST

Cr@p. - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:11:17 AM EST

I'll play, briefly. - (Another Scott) - (5) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:14:08 AM EST

And of course no employees smoke - (imric) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:19:53 AM EST

Heath and safety rules are inconvenient. - (Another Scott) - (3) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:47:16 AM EST

You don't mind if smokers do it in their own homes - (imric) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:51:40 AM EST

Smoking is an interesting case re: the health issues - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:51:02 PM EST

Men of straw. - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:12:39 PM EST

Your ifs are wrong. - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:52:00 AM EST

Your facts are wrong - (imric) - (3) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:30:19 AM EST

Your example does not refute the assertion - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:51:15 AM EST

Never said that minors should be exposed. - (imric) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:58:13 AM EST

It sounds like a reasonable compromise to me as well -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:35:59 PM EST

<reagan>There you go again</reagan> - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:03:10 AM EST

It is not just Libertarians who say that - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:55:08 AM EST

It is about health - (lister) - (22) - Feb. 15, 2006, 01:59:04 PM EST

what kind of point is that? - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:01:05 PM EST

It was an example - (lister) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:29:33 PM EST

No, its not. - (bepatient) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:24:10 PM EST

I don't disagree on truly private clubs. - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:32:41 PM EST

Works for after-hours clubs - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:00:21 PM EST

It's a loophole if... - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:06:15 PM EST

That loophole can be closed - (bepatient) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:35:58 PM EST

I don't disagree with any of that. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:20:34 PM EST

Please elaborate. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:33:43 PM EST

Idiotic. I'd leave. I wouldn't pass a law against BO. - (imric) - (12) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:15:37 PM EST

You missed the point. - (admin) - (11) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:19:26 PM EST

If that were true - (imric) - (10) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:27:55 PM EST

You're absolutely right, I don't HAVE to go to a bar. - (admin) - (9) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:27:43 PM EST

Did you people get any work done today? -NT - (broomberg) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 07:05:09 PM EST

Nope -NT - (drewk) - Feb. 15, 2006, 08:41:13 PM EST

I type quickly. -NT - (admin) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 09:39:57 PM EST

Interesting way to avoid answering the question... -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:57:14 AM EST

Yup -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:01:44 PM EST

why cant you drink draft beer and play pool in yer home? - (boxley) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 08:00:45 PM EST

Don't have a keg fridge - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 09:39:33 PM EST

internet, check basement check duct tape check don t need a - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:29:12 PM EST

I don't drink that much beer. :-) -NT - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:37:54 PM EST

Yes, but I think Seattle went a little far - (tuberculosis) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:13:55 PM EST

It may change soon in Virginia too. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:49:12 PM EST

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