Not my point

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Post #244,858

by drewk

2/15/06 10:49:46 PM

Not my point

I introduced the remark about Libertarians because the point addresses a common Libertarian belief that we're all going to be better off if we allow everyone to do their own thing.

Many Libertarians do argue that we will all be better off financially if we allow everyone to do their own thing. Some of them even think that's the goal. Really, though, the point of Libertarianism is that being free to make your own decisions is the goal. "Better off financially" is not the same as "better off".

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #244,860

by ben_tilly

2/15/06 11:02:42 PM

And completely orthogonal to mine

I was trying to address Skip's question about how it is that smoking bans can be good for bars, yet no bar will choose to ban smoking.

I was explicitly not trying to say whether smoking bans are right or wrong. In fact I'm trying to stay out of that argument. Because the answer as to which you think is better is highly dependent on your personal value system, which varies from person to person.

I also note that I never said, nor did I mean to imply, that all Libertarians believe as they do for economic reasons. Some, sure, but not all. However many do argue their position on economic grounds, and I was pointing out that those arguments are fallacious because of exactly the kind of counter-intuitive dynamics that show up with smoking bans. (Many is, of course, far from all.)

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Peter's pub experiences will change - (ben_tilly) - (150) - Feb. 14, 2006, 09:57:31 PM EST

Works for me - (pwhysall) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 01:45:14 AM EST

Toronto has had it for a couple of years - (lister) - (5) - Feb. 15, 2006, 12:13:48 PM EST

Come to Kingston - (jake123) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:42:41 PM EST

Been there, far drive - (lister) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:11:18 PM EST

Well, let me know the next time you're coming through - (jake123) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 07:07:02 PM EST

Doing both in June - (lister) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:01:41 AM EST

That'll probably be in Kingston - (jake123) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:46:47 PM EST

Hurrah! Anything to reduce the evil weed. -NT - (warmachine) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:32:31 AM EST

Next sins, in order: alcohol, seduction, evangelizing . . . -NT - (Ashton) - (140) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:40:23 AM EST

Hey, I'm fine with people SMOKING tobacco... - (inthane-chan) - (139) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:25:11 AM EST

Supply & Demand. - (imric) - (137) - Feb. 15, 2006, 12:05:41 PM EST

That doesn't work. - (admin) - (113) - Feb. 15, 2006, 12:29:44 PM EST

Same damned thing. - (imric) - (112) - Feb. 15, 2006, 01:39:09 PM EST

Two things are working against that. - (admin) - (62) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:04:06 PM EST

For the record, yes - (drewk) - (50) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:37:10 PM EST

Re: For the record, yes - (admin) - (49) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:56:27 PM EST

Nanny state - (drewk) - (47) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:17:22 PM EST

Basic public health and safety isn't nannying. - (admin) - (38) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:27:39 PM EST

I'm reminded of an old saying - (drewk) - (37) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:41:09 PM EST

Actually in Helena... - (admin) - (31) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:28:16 PM EST

60% of all heart attacks are due to 2nd hand smoke? - (boxley) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:06:34 PM EST

Wait, I missed something - (drewk) - (18) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:09:19 PM EST

Dunno, why don't they? - (admin) - (17) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:17:37 PM EST

So they *do* exist - (drewk) - (16) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:35:39 PM EST

Re: So they *do* exist - (admin) - (15) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:52:36 PM EST

Why not? - (drewk) - (14) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:59:02 PM EST

Many times it easier to breathe - (jbrabeck) - (12) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:02:44 PM EST

So *you* would rather breathe smoke than hear whining - (drewk) - (11) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:10:47 PM EST

Hell no - (jbrabeck) - (10) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:45:19 AM EST

And you'd create a drug war to make our existing one... - (ben_tilly) - (9) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:57:50 AM EST

I didn't say make it illegal.... - (jbrabeck) - (8) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:06:43 AM EST

It's already cheaper to smuggle... - (ben_tilly) - (7) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:37:10 AM EST

now? I can mail order 4 cartons a month from Israel -NT - (boxley) - (6) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:40:31 AM EST

Now. - (jake123) - (5) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:53:29 PM EST

Canada's taxes are higher than US taxes - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:26:17 PM EST

do people around you go to Indian Smokeshops? - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:29:19 PM EST

Not that I know of. -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:38:03 PM EST

Not true when it comes to smokes - (jake123) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 03:45:31 PM EST

Good to know. My impression was out of date. -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:05:46 PM EST

The restaurant was always busy before the ban. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:03:03 PM EST

funny I dont even see a listing for that here - (boxley) - (9) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:10:17 PM EST

... - (admin) - (8) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:21:06 PM EST

doesnt mention second hand anything - (boxley) - (7) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:36:24 PM EST

Oh, right, because smoke magically only affects the smoker. - (admin) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:50:54 PM EST

That's new to me - (drewk) - (5) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:58:07 PM EST

Re: That's new to me - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:01:47 PM EST

Not at all the same - (drewk) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:09:40 PM EST

Uh, no. - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:14:52 PM EST

I'm the sophist? - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:23:49 PM EST

Re: I'm the sophist? - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:32:25 PM EST

Ah.. It's-Good-for-You -- is Enough: OK, suppose we PROVED - (Ashton) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:04:11 PM EST

I don't get cancer if you eat a Big Mac - (lister) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:49:22 PM EST

Right back at you. - (imric) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:12:23 PM EST

You do pay for his decrease in health - (bepatient) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:44:23 PM EST

<smack location=back_of_head /> -NT - (jb4) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:03:28 AM EST

Hey - (bepatient) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:24:22 PM EST

On fire codes and such... - (Another Scott) - (7) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:31:28 PM EST

Insurance - (drewk) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:01:03 PM EST

Comes under the category of "reasonable" - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:13:46 PM EST

You just jumped the shark - (drewk) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:30:03 PM EST

WTF? - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:40:28 PM EST

Do you support random roadblocks? - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:53:34 PM EST

No. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:16:21 PM EST

That's too simplistic. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:17:41 PM EST

Beat me to it...Drook, what he said! -NT - (jb4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:21:38 PM EST

I was poor, true. Desparate times DO require desparate - (imric) - (10) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:57:57 PM EST

Finally, a reasonable counter-suggestion - (admin) - (9) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:34:55 PM EST

How about peanuts? - (drewk) - (8) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:45:21 PM EST

Thats why you get pretzels on planes now. -NT - (bepatient) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:46:54 PM EST

I thought it was because the pretzels are cheaper. -NT - (Simon_Jester) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:33:16 PM EST

Already have "stink" restrictions in many places. - (jbrabeck) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:57:30 PM EST

They don't allow peanuts in the schools here. - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:58:18 PM EST

Not playing games, making a point - (drewk) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:07:36 PM EST

Re: Not playing games, making a point - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:18:51 PM EST

Those offended by the cartoons would say that's what matters - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:28:23 PM EST

Shrug. It's all in your viewpoint. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:34:26 PM EST

Capitalism is imperfect - (ben_tilly) - (48) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:01:08 PM EST

Capitalism and libertarianism are orthogonal - (drewk) - (47) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:12:03 PM EST

I wasn't saying what was right - (ben_tilly) - (46) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:39:30 PM EST

Not my point - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:49:46 PM EST

And completely orthogonal to mine - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:02:42 PM EST

I am a moderate as a Libertarian - (imric) - (43) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:11:48 PM EST

I'm not arguing for or against this change - (ben_tilly) - (42) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:46:57 PM EST

"That can be a losing economic idea" - (imric) - (39) - Feb. 16, 2006, 07:23:11 AM EST

All society is groups forcing their choices on others - (pwhysall) - (33) - Feb. 16, 2006, 07:35:29 AM EST

:-) ObMythbusters aside. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 16, 2006, 07:52:46 AM EST

Thats why yer missus will be wearing a burka in 20 years -NT - (boxley) - Feb. 16, 2006, 08:35:20 AM EST

Not the same - (drewk) - (21) - Feb. 16, 2006, 08:59:33 AM EST

Re: Not the same - (pwhysall) - (20) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:06:01 AM EST

So go find a place that doesn't allow smoking. - (imric) - (16) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:13:31 AM EST

Overly simplistic answer - (jbrabeck) - (15) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:03:36 AM EST

If it doesn't go both ways, the 'reasoning' is faulty. - (imric) - (14) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:17:39 AM EST

I don't know why Georgia is different than NYC. - (ben_tilly) - (13) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:39:19 AM EST

Me neither. - (imric) - (12) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:44:43 AM EST

I have a strong suspicion that I know the answer - (ben_tilly) - (11) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:52:43 AM EST

*shrug* They choose their customer base. - (imric) - (10) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:59:14 AM EST

Do you have any idea how ironic this is? - (ben_tilly) - (9) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:34:35 PM EST

Not at all - well, sort of. - (imric) - (8) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:56:42 PM EST

The network effect WAS there. - (admin) - (5) - Feb. 16, 2006, 02:28:14 PM EST

So - - (imric) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 02:57:48 PM EST

Refuse to see it all you want. - (admin) - (3) - Feb. 16, 2006, 03:09:56 PM EST

Of course that's the ONLY explanation, right? - (imric) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 04:16:13 PM EST

Conservatism and risk are part of it. - (admin) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 04:54:37 PM EST

*shrug* -NT - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:12:35 PM EST

I'm not interested in arguing this to the ground - (ben_tilly) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:10:36 PM EST

*smile* Sounds good. Me too. -NT - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:15:54 PM EST

Try again - (drewk) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:20:49 AM EST

Yes, but it SHOULD be legal! - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:49:08 PM EST

One thing at a time - (drewk) - Feb. 16, 2006, 06:15:07 PM EST

Still avoiding it, huh. - (imric) - (8) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:01:09 AM EST

You have a place. - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:06:35 AM EST

Cr@p. - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:11:17 AM EST

I'll play, briefly. - (Another Scott) - (5) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:14:08 AM EST

And of course no employees smoke - (imric) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:19:53 AM EST

Heath and safety rules are inconvenient. - (Another Scott) - (3) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:47:16 AM EST

You don't mind if smokers do it in their own homes - (imric) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:51:40 AM EST

Smoking is an interesting case re: the health issues - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:51:02 PM EST

Men of straw. - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:12:39 PM EST

Your ifs are wrong. - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:52:00 AM EST

Your facts are wrong - (imric) - (3) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:30:19 AM EST

Your example does not refute the assertion - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:51:15 AM EST

Never said that minors should be exposed. - (imric) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:58:13 AM EST

It sounds like a reasonable compromise to me as well -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:35:59 PM EST

<reagan>There you go again</reagan> - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:03:10 AM EST

It is not just Libertarians who say that - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:55:08 AM EST

It is about health - (lister) - (22) - Feb. 15, 2006, 01:59:04 PM EST

what kind of point is that? - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:01:05 PM EST

It was an example - (lister) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:29:33 PM EST

No, its not. - (bepatient) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:24:10 PM EST

I don't disagree on truly private clubs. - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:32:41 PM EST

Works for after-hours clubs - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:00:21 PM EST

It's a loophole if... - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:06:15 PM EST

That loophole can be closed - (bepatient) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:35:58 PM EST

I don't disagree with any of that. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:20:34 PM EST

Please elaborate. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:33:43 PM EST

Idiotic. I'd leave. I wouldn't pass a law against BO. - (imric) - (12) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:15:37 PM EST

You missed the point. - (admin) - (11) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:19:26 PM EST

If that were true - (imric) - (10) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:27:55 PM EST

You're absolutely right, I don't HAVE to go to a bar. - (admin) - (9) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:27:43 PM EST

Did you people get any work done today? -NT - (broomberg) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 07:05:09 PM EST

Nope -NT - (drewk) - Feb. 15, 2006, 08:41:13 PM EST

I type quickly. -NT - (admin) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 09:39:57 PM EST

Interesting way to avoid answering the question... -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:57:14 AM EST

Yup -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:01:44 PM EST

why cant you drink draft beer and play pool in yer home? - (boxley) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 08:00:45 PM EST

Don't have a keg fridge - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 09:39:33 PM EST

internet, check basement check duct tape check don t need a - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:29:12 PM EST

I don't drink that much beer. :-) -NT - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:37:54 PM EST

Yes, but I think Seattle went a little far - (tuberculosis) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:13:55 PM EST

It may change soon in Virginia too. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:49:12 PM EST

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