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IWETHEY Home / IWETHEY Board / News Picks Forum / Oh, right, because smoke magically only affects the smoker.
Post #244,739
by admin
Picture of admin
2/15/06 4:47:56 PM
2/15/06 4:50:54 PM
Reply
New Oh, right, because smoke magically only affects the smoker.
[link|http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7446/980|http://bmj.bmjjourna...full/328/7446/980] - "A substantial body of epidemiological and laboratory data indicates that, unlike the case with lung cancer, the risk of acute myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease associated with exposure to tobacco smoke is non-linear at low doses, increasing rapidly with relatively small doses such as those received from secondhand smoke or actively smoking one or two cigarettes a day." (emphasis mine)

And the original study: [link|http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7446/977|http://bmj.bmjjourna...full/328/7446/977]

The [link|http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3557|mechanism]:
The mechanism for this effect is likely to be that the inhaled smoke stimulates the immediate production of macrophages - white blood cells that "clean up the system".

But these break down and lead to the production of blood clotting agents. "So if someone is teetering on the brink of a heart attack, this clotting is likely to tip them over," says West.


And sorry, it was 40%, not 60%. Same diff.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Expand Edited by admin Feb. 15, 2006, 04:50:36 PM EST
Expand Edited by admin Feb. 15, 2006, 04:50:54 PM EST
Expand All History
Post #244,743
by drewk
Picture of drewk
2/15/06 4:58:07 PM
Reply
New That's new to me
I never heard that before. So basically the smoke was the last straw.

Hmm, is it fair to say that the smoke is the "cause" of a heart attack when the person had to be already "teetering on the brink"? Trigger, yes.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
Post #244,747
by admin
Picture of admin
2/15/06 5:01:47 PM
Reply
New Re: That's new to me
So if there was someone with a deadly peanut allergy, and someone else aerosolized some peanuts and sprayed them, causing anaphylactic shock, was the spray the cause of the death, or just the trigger?

In other words, if the person is not dead without the extra little bit, they're still not dead no matter how close they are to the brink or not.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #244,752
by drewk
Picture of drewk
2/15/06 5:09:40 PM
Reply
New Not at all the same
In your scenario the peanut was the only factor.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
Post #244,757
by admin
Picture of admin
2/15/06 5:14:52 PM
Reply
New Uh, no.
Both situations have a pre-existing medical condition and an external exacerbation.

Are you in sophist mode or something today? This is getting tiresome.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #244,764
by drewk
Picture of drewk
2/15/06 5:23:49 PM
Reply
New I'm the sophist?
Someone with a peanut allergy is exposed to peanut. Peanut was the only factor.

Someone with fatty deposits on their arteries is exposed to smoke. Multiple factors. One was the trigger, one was the underlying condition.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
Post #244,769
by admin
Picture of admin
2/15/06 5:32:25 PM
Reply
New Re: I'm the sophist?
Peanut allergy is to fatty deposits as peanut is to smoke.

wtfever, Drew.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
     Peter's pub experiences will change - (ben_tilly) - (150) - Feb. 14, 2006, 09:57:31 PM EST
         Works for me - (pwhysall) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 01:45:14 AM EST
             Toronto has had it for a couple of years - (lister) - (5) - Feb. 15, 2006, 12:13:48 PM EST
                 Come to Kingston - (jake123) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:42:41 PM EST
                     Been there, far drive - (lister) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:11:18 PM EST
                         Well, let me know the next time you're coming through - (jake123) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 07:07:02 PM EST
                             Doing both in June - (lister) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:01:41 AM EST
                                 That'll probably be in Kingston - (jake123) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:46:47 PM EST
         Hurrah! Anything to reduce the evil weed. -NT - (warmachine) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:32:31 AM EST
         Next sins, in order: alcohol, seduction, evangelizing . . . -NT - (Ashton) - (140) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:40:23 AM EST
             Hey, I'm fine with people SMOKING tobacco... - (inthane-chan) - (139) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:25:11 AM EST
                 Supply & Demand. - (imric) - (137) - Feb. 15, 2006, 12:05:41 PM EST
                     That doesn't work. - (admin) - (113) - Feb. 15, 2006, 12:29:44 PM EST
                         Same damned thing. - (imric) - (112) - Feb. 15, 2006, 01:39:09 PM EST
                             Two things are working against that. - (admin) - (62) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:04:06 PM EST
                                 For the record, yes - (drewk) - (50) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:37:10 PM EST
                                     Re: For the record, yes - (admin) - (49) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:56:27 PM EST
                                         Nanny state - (drewk) - (47) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:17:22 PM EST
                                             Basic public health and safety isn't nannying. - (admin) - (38) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:27:39 PM EST
                                                 I'm reminded of an old saying - (drewk) - (37) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:41:09 PM EST
                                                     Actually in Helena... - (admin) - (31) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:28:16 PM EST
                                                         60% of all heart attacks are due to 2nd hand smoke? - (boxley) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:06:34 PM EST
                                                         Wait, I missed something - (drewk) - (18) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:09:19 PM EST
                                                             Dunno, why don't they? - (admin) - (17) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:17:37 PM EST
                                                                 So they *do* exist - (drewk) - (16) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:35:39 PM EST
                                                                     Re: So they *do* exist - (admin) - (15) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:52:36 PM EST
                                                                         Why not? - (drewk) - (14) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:59:02 PM EST
                                                                             Many times it easier to breathe - (jbrabeck) - (12) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:02:44 PM EST
                                                                                 So *you* would rather breathe smoke than hear whining - (drewk) - (11) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:10:47 PM EST
                                                                                     Hell no - (jbrabeck) - (10) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:45:19 AM EST
                                                                                         And you'd create a drug war to make our existing one... - (ben_tilly) - (9) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:57:50 AM EST
                                                                                             I didn't say make it illegal.... - (jbrabeck) - (8) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:06:43 AM EST
                                                                                                 It's already cheaper to smuggle... - (ben_tilly) - (7) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:37:10 AM EST
                                                                                                     now? I can mail order 4 cartons a month from Israel -NT - (boxley) - (6) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:40:31 AM EST
                                                                                                         Now. - (jake123) - (5) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:53:29 PM EST
                                                                                                             Canada's taxes are higher than US taxes - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:26:17 PM EST
                                                                                                                 do people around you go to Indian Smokeshops? - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:29:19 PM EST
                                                                                                                     Not that I know of. -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:38:03 PM EST
                                                                                                                 Not true when it comes to smokes - (jake123) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 03:45:31 PM EST
                                                                                                                     Good to know. My impression was out of date. -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:05:46 PM EST
                                                                             The restaurant was always busy before the ban. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:03:03 PM EST
                                                         funny I dont even see a listing for that here - (boxley) - (9) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:10:17 PM EST
                                                             ... - (admin) - (8) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:21:06 PM EST
                                                                 doesnt mention second hand anything - (boxley) - (7) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:36:24 PM EST
                                                                     Oh, right, because smoke magically only affects the smoker. - (admin) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:50:54 PM EST
                                                                         That's new to me - (drewk) - (5) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:58:07 PM EST
                                                                             Re: That's new to me - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:01:47 PM EST
                                                                                 Not at all the same - (drewk) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:09:40 PM EST
                                                                                     Uh, no. - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:14:52 PM EST
                                                                                         I'm the sophist? - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:23:49 PM EST
                                                                                             Re: I'm the sophist? - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:32:25 PM EST
                                                         Ah.. It's-Good-for-You -- is Enough: OK, suppose we PROVED - (Ashton) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:04:11 PM EST
                                                     I don't get cancer if you eat a Big Mac - (lister) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:49:22 PM EST
                                                         Right back at you. - (imric) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:12:23 PM EST
                                                         You do pay for his decrease in health - (bepatient) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:44:23 PM EST
                                                             <smack location=back_of_head /> -NT - (jb4) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:03:28 AM EST
                                                                 Hey - (bepatient) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:24:22 PM EST
                                             On fire codes and such... - (Another Scott) - (7) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:31:28 PM EST
                                                 Insurance - (drewk) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:01:03 PM EST
                                                     Comes under the category of "reasonable" - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:13:46 PM EST
                                                         You just jumped the shark - (drewk) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:30:03 PM EST
                                                             WTF? - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:40:28 PM EST
                                                                 Do you support random roadblocks? - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:53:34 PM EST
                                                                     No. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:16:21 PM EST
                                                     That's too simplistic. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:17:41 PM EST
                                         Beat me to it...Drook, what he said! -NT - (jb4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:21:38 PM EST
                                 I was poor, true. Desparate times DO require desparate - (imric) - (10) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:57:57 PM EST
                                     Finally, a reasonable counter-suggestion - (admin) - (9) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:34:55 PM EST
                                         How about peanuts? - (drewk) - (8) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:45:21 PM EST
                                             Thats why you get pretzels on planes now. -NT - (bepatient) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:46:54 PM EST
                                                 I thought it was because the pretzels are cheaper. -NT - (Simon_Jester) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:33:16 PM EST
                                             Already have "stink" restrictions in many places. - (jbrabeck) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:57:30 PM EST
                                             They don't allow peanuts in the schools here. - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:58:18 PM EST
                                                 Not playing games, making a point - (drewk) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:07:36 PM EST
                                                     Re: Not playing games, making a point - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:18:51 PM EST
                                                         Those offended by the cartoons would say that's what matters - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:28:23 PM EST
                                                             Shrug. It's all in your viewpoint. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:34:26 PM EST
                             Capitalism is imperfect - (ben_tilly) - (48) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:01:08 PM EST
                                 Capitalism and libertarianism are orthogonal - (drewk) - (47) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:12:03 PM EST
                                     I wasn't saying what was right - (ben_tilly) - (46) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:39:30 PM EST
                                         Not my point - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:49:46 PM EST
                                             And completely orthogonal to mine - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:02:42 PM EST
                                         I am a moderate as a Libertarian - (imric) - (43) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:11:48 PM EST
                                             I'm not arguing for or against this change - (ben_tilly) - (42) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:46:57 PM EST
                                                 "That can be a losing economic idea" - (imric) - (39) - Feb. 16, 2006, 07:23:11 AM EST
                                                     All society is groups forcing their choices on others - (pwhysall) - (33) - Feb. 16, 2006, 07:35:29 AM EST
                                                         :-) ObMythbusters aside. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 16, 2006, 07:52:46 AM EST
                                                         Thats why yer missus will be wearing a burka in 20 years -NT - (boxley) - Feb. 16, 2006, 08:35:20 AM EST
                                                         Not the same - (drewk) - (21) - Feb. 16, 2006, 08:59:33 AM EST
                                                             Re: Not the same - (pwhysall) - (20) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:06:01 AM EST
                                                                 So go find a place that doesn't allow smoking. - (imric) - (16) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:13:31 AM EST
                                                                     Overly simplistic answer - (jbrabeck) - (15) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:03:36 AM EST
                                                                         If it doesn't go both ways, the 'reasoning' is faulty. - (imric) - (14) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:17:39 AM EST
                                                                             I don't know why Georgia is different than NYC. - (ben_tilly) - (13) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:39:19 AM EST
                                                                                 Me neither. - (imric) - (12) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:44:43 AM EST
                                                                                     I have a strong suspicion that I know the answer - (ben_tilly) - (11) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:52:43 AM EST
                                                                                         *shrug* They choose their customer base. - (imric) - (10) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:59:14 AM EST
                                                                                             Do you have any idea how ironic this is? - (ben_tilly) - (9) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:34:35 PM EST
                                                                                                 Not at all - well, sort of. - (imric) - (8) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:56:42 PM EST
                                                                                                     The network effect WAS there. - (admin) - (5) - Feb. 16, 2006, 02:28:14 PM EST
                                                                                                         So - - (imric) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 02:57:48 PM EST
                                                                                                             Refuse to see it all you want. - (admin) - (3) - Feb. 16, 2006, 03:09:56 PM EST
                                                                                                                 Of course that's the ONLY explanation, right? - (imric) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 04:16:13 PM EST
                                                                                                                     Conservatism and risk are part of it. - (admin) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 04:54:37 PM EST
                                                                                                                         *shrug* -NT - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:12:35 PM EST
                                                                                                     I'm not interested in arguing this to the ground - (ben_tilly) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:10:36 PM EST
                                                                                                         *smile* Sounds good. Me too. -NT - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 05:15:54 PM EST
                                                                 Try again - (drewk) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:20:49 AM EST
                                                                     Yes, but it SHOULD be legal! - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:49:08 PM EST
                                                                         One thing at a time - (drewk) - Feb. 16, 2006, 06:15:07 PM EST
                                                         Still avoiding it, huh. - (imric) - (8) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:01:09 AM EST
                                                             You have a place. - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:06:35 AM EST
                                                                 Cr@p. - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:11:17 AM EST
                                                             I'll play, briefly. - (Another Scott) - (5) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:14:08 AM EST
                                                                 And of course no employees smoke - (imric) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:19:53 AM EST
                                                                     Heath and safety rules are inconvenient. - (Another Scott) - (3) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:47:16 AM EST
                                                                         You don't mind if smokers do it in their own homes - (imric) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:51:40 AM EST
                                                                             Smoking is an interesting case re: the health issues - (pwhysall) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:51:02 PM EST
                                                                                 Men of straw. - (imric) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:12:39 PM EST
                                                     Your ifs are wrong. - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:52:00 AM EST
                                                         Your facts are wrong - (imric) - (3) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:30:19 AM EST
                                                             Your example does not refute the assertion - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:51:15 AM EST
                                                                 Never said that minors should be exposed. - (imric) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 11:58:13 AM EST
                                                                     It sounds like a reasonable compromise to me as well -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 01:35:59 PM EST
                                                 <reagan>There you go again</reagan> - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 16, 2006, 09:03:10 AM EST
                                                     It is not just Libertarians who say that - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 10:55:08 AM EST
                     It is about health - (lister) - (22) - Feb. 15, 2006, 01:59:04 PM EST
                         what kind of point is that? - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:01:05 PM EST
                             It was an example - (lister) - Feb. 15, 2006, 02:29:33 PM EST
                         No, its not. - (bepatient) - (6) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:24:10 PM EST
                             I don't disagree on truly private clubs. - (admin) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:32:41 PM EST
                                 Works for after-hours clubs - (drewk) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:00:21 PM EST
                                     It's a loophole if... - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:06:15 PM EST
                                 That loophole can be closed - (bepatient) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:35:58 PM EST
                                     I don't disagree with any of that. - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:20:34 PM EST
                             Please elaborate. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 15, 2006, 03:33:43 PM EST
                         Idiotic. I'd leave. I wouldn't pass a law against BO. - (imric) - (12) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:15:37 PM EST
                             You missed the point. - (admin) - (11) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:19:26 PM EST
                                 If that were true - (imric) - (10) - Feb. 15, 2006, 04:27:55 PM EST
                                     You're absolutely right, I don't HAVE to go to a bar. - (admin) - (9) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:27:43 PM EST
                                         Did you people get any work done today? -NT - (broomberg) - (4) - Feb. 15, 2006, 07:05:09 PM EST
                                             Nope -NT - (drewk) - Feb. 15, 2006, 08:41:13 PM EST
                                             I type quickly. -NT - (admin) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 09:39:57 PM EST
                                                 Interesting way to avoid answering the question... -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 16, 2006, 12:57:14 AM EST
                                             Yup -NT - (ben_tilly) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:01:44 PM EST
                                         why cant you drink draft beer and play pool in yer home? - (boxley) - (3) - Feb. 15, 2006, 08:00:45 PM EST
                                             Don't have a keg fridge - (admin) - (2) - Feb. 15, 2006, 09:39:33 PM EST
                                                 internet, check basement check duct tape check don t need a - (boxley) - (1) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:29:12 PM EST
                                                     I don't drink that much beer. :-) -NT - (admin) - Feb. 15, 2006, 10:37:54 PM EST
                 Yes, but I think Seattle went a little far - (tuberculosis) - Feb. 15, 2006, 05:13:55 PM EST
         It may change soon in Virginia too. - (Another Scott) - Feb. 15, 2006, 11:49:12 PM EST

Such firms gave a bad name to the penis enhancement business.
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