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New Concur
Cross in a box, open count by humans, overseen by representatives of all parties. That's actual democracy, kids.

We might elect some right numpties over here, but there's never even the whiff of any impropriety in the process.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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New But your elections are far simpler than ours
If England is like Canada, in an election you are answering one question. Which candidate do you wish to represent you?

In my last vote I answered a couple dozen different questions. Who do I want for President, Senate, Congress, city council, schoolboard, a couple open judgeships, numerous propositions, etc?

That quirk of the US election process makes voting here far harder to do and to count than the British Parliamentary System is.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New So?
Vote counting in the tradition by which it's followed up here (you count the votes in front of representatives of the people running in the election) is the best way to make sure that each vote is counted and counted properly. That quirk is why I hope that fixed term elections never comes to this country, but, that said, even if you have six or eight ballots in one, the process of calling the vote, holding up the ballot so everyone can see it, handing it around to anyone that might want to look, and then tabulating the vote and finally putting the ballot into the box for safekeeping, is the best way to ensure there's no fraud.

It means that you're going to have a lot of people involved in counting the votes; perhaps even a statistically significant portion of the population. Why this is seen as a bad thing for democracy is a mystery to me.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New I understand the Canadian system
I even have counted votes for it.

I've also voted in the US system, and that experience makes me appreciate that the problem of counting votes here is a lot worse than it is there.

Some of the ideas carry over - for instance all major parties should audit the counting process as a matter of course. But the implementation is going to be more complex.

Cheers,
Ben

PS The real problem with the US system is not the complication. It is that there is a long tradition of, and too much tolerance for, people trying to manipulate the vote.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Not a problem at all, if one uses a little grey matter.
Sweden has municipal, provincial, and national elections all at once. Here's how they work:

You takes your municipal-party ballot(*) and stuffs it in one envelope(+), your provincial-party ballot and stuffs it in another envelope, and your national-party ballot and stuffs it in yet a third envelope. You seals your envelopes, comes out from the hush-hush sooper-*sikrit* election booth and steps over to the table where the volunteer functionaries sit, behind the ballot urns(&), and show some ID so they can cross you off in the ledger (Yes, even if the ID checker is your old "junior high school" history teacher, he *will* insist on seeing ID -- just to give you a lesson in how things are supposed to be done, I think), and then you stuff each ballot into the correct urn.

How can you get this right, you ask, when the ballots are inside sealed envelopes -- how would you know which sealed envelope goes in which urn? Well, you see, the ballots are colour-coded, and the envelopes are special election envelopes: They have two lower corners cut off(%), so the corresponding corners of whatever paper is in them are visible! The pre-printed text is much more towards the center of the paper, so that can't be seen. (I suppose if you did a write-in, and doodled all the way out there, then you only have yourself to blame for the functionaries noticing that "that crackpot probably wrote 'Donald Duck' again".)

You just stuff the envelope with the protruding white corners in the urn with the white top, the one with the pale-blue corners in the urn with the blue top, and the one with the pale-yellow corners in the urn with the yellow top.

OK, sure, if you're electing deputy sherriffs and dogcatchers, you'll need more colours -- but the principle should work all the same, AFAICS.

(Another alternative would of course be, "so DON'T vote for every frigging functionary under the sun on the same day.")

HTH!




(*): Usually pre-printed by the parties wot want you to vote for them, but blank papers are available for you to write "Donald Duck!" on, if that's how you feel.

(+): To preserve the secrecy of your vote -- wouldn't want the volunteers who oversee the process to sneak a peek at your ballot.

(&): Big wooden boxes, actually. (Well, probably plywood, to be *quite* precise.)

(%): The envelopes also have a glued-in piece of string along the top, under the flap you glued sealed, IIRC. This is presumably to make them easier to open, by just pulling on the string, so the election functionaries don't have to use more lethal forms of letter openers.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|Mr. Hat]
New At 2 dozen questions...
that simple approach won't scale very well. There would be endless problems with people trying to figure out where each box is, with person A getting to box 5 then needing to find box 3, or people dropping the envelope for one box in another one, etc.

I agree that it would be best to have us directly vote on fewer things at a time. But that isn't going to happen without major changes to the Constitution. In the meantime this quirk of the US system provides a complication that very few foreigners appreciate.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I guess they dont have any black or old people there
that ID thingy stops them from voting.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Intelligent Design?
Blimey. It's a "theory" with far-reaching consequences indeed!


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New So how do you write in Donald Duck...
...in Sweedish? Or Finnish?
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New With a biro, usually.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
     In case there was any doubt about Diebold,... - (a6l6e6x) - (35)
         Electronic Voting Machines - (gdaustin) - (23)
             Ya know - (jb4) - (2)
                 Nah. - (imric) - (1)
                     **snort** -NT - (jb4)
             Back to chads my ass - (jake123) - (19)
                 "No humans were used in running this election" - (jb4)
                 That's how Illinois does it. - (Yendor) - (2)
                     Still using punch cards downstate -NT - (Silverlock)
                     Lake county has paper... - (jb4)
                 People cost money and are subject to error. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                     Machines are too easy to cheat with. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                         People do cost money. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                             Volunteers are free. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 See my link. - (Another Scott)
                 Concur - (pwhysall) - (9)
                     But your elections are far simpler than ours - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                         So? - (jake123) - (1)
                             I understand the Canadian system - (ben_tilly)
                         Not a problem at all, if one uses a little grey matter. - (CRConrad) - (5)
                             At 2 dozen questions... - (ben_tilly)
                             I guess they dont have any black or old people there - (boxley) - (1)
                                 Intelligent Design? - (pwhysall)
                             So how do you write in Donald Duck... - (jb4) - (1)
                                 With a biro, usually. -NT - (pwhysall)
         Getting some airplay, least on NPR - (Ashton)
         Very well, then - (rcareaga) - (9)
             Love your style. Nice art. Thanks! -NT - (hnick)
             thank you sir - (boxley)
             Very nice indeed. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
             Wonderful humor! Thanks for the chuckle. -NT - (imqwerky)
             I am updating my blog in your honor, sir. -NT - (inthane-chan)
             Simply.. - (Ashton)
             Well done, Rand! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
             I've been seeing these in lots of places lately -NT - (Silverlock)
             Another example of Die**** press du jour - (Ashton)

Globes ... or flutes?
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