Post #224,988
9/16/05 11:23:52 AM
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US / Venezuela conflict continues to brew
[link|http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/headline/world/3356406|Houston Chronicle] President Bush has taken Venezuela off his list of allies in the war on drugs, saying that President Hugo Chavez spurned anti-drug cooperation with U.S. officials and fired its effective law enforcement officers.
But the White House waived the cuts in U.S. foreign aid usually attached to the "decertification" so that it can continue to support pro-democracy groups in Venezuela that oppose the leftist Chavez. The 'pro-democracy' in the above statement is the sort of nearly but not quite outright lie that this administration is so good at. The anti-Chavez forces in Venezuela represent a small percent of the population, most of whom are rich power mongers. Bush's decision is expected to sharply exacerbate already bitter U.S.-Venezuelan relations roiled by Washington's charges that Chavez is promoting subversion around the hemisphere and the Venezuelan president's allegations that Bush is out to kill him. Both sides are playing politcs and exaggerating here. I suspect that the Venezuelan government did catch some DEA agents dealing drugs and spying on Venezuelan officals. But trying to kill the entire program over it is going to far. And of course, given the quality of the US / Venezuela relationship, once it started it just continued to grow, neither side willing to back down or admit any mistakes. Jay
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Post #224,998
9/16/05 12:18:35 PM
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Lemme get this straight
DEA agents are dealing drugs, prolly to use the profits to aid in spying activities in which they are also participating... and kicking them all out is overkill?
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Post #225,001
9/16/05 12:22:26 PM
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Re: Lemme get this straight
Kicking out the agents caught dealing drugs is to be expected, and is actually sorta generous. But arresting and trying them locally would be a problem.
Trying to kill all cooperation with the US on drug enforcement is going to far.
Jay
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Post #225,004
9/16/05 12:28:52 PM
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Decriminalize the lot of it
and the problem will eventually drop to manageable proportions.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #225,007
9/16/05 12:30:45 PM
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Amen!
I agree...decrim will actually put more money in fed coffers. With the added bonus of really cool, mellow constituency.
Peace, Love and Drugs, man!
Amy
Pray for the survivors of Bush.
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Post #225,006
9/16/05 12:29:14 PM
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Why?
If the US is apparently using the drug control cooperation program to both destabilize Venezuala by actually using it to improve the distribution of illegal drugs there and as cover and funding for spying activities, why is cancelling it going too far?
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Post #225,030
9/16/05 2:06:11 PM
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I doubt it was directed by the US
The DEA and every other agency in the drug war has a persistant problem with agents turning to dealing drugs. They know how much money is involved, have access to difficult to trace drugs and know how to avoid the police.
As for spying on the government, for all we know they may have been looking for people dealing drugs on their side, nor do we have any proof that it really happened.
The whole thing strikes me as a few agents dealing drugs on their own, and the Venezuelan government taking for action of the US government.
Jay
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Post #225,065
9/16/05 3:42:33 PM
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Well, it's not like it's never happened before
in that part of the world - IranContra, anyone?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #225,074
9/16/05 3:53:41 PM
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started with United Fruit Company
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #225,080
9/16/05 4:16:51 PM
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Yep, with a long history like that
I can understand why the Venezuelan gov't (esp. under its current leadership) would be likely to jump to the least charitable conclusion.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #225,439
9/19/05 10:05:10 AM
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Lemme get *this* straight
Venezuela shouldn't try DEA agents it caught dealing drugs and spying, but the US should demand Canada hand over a canadian citizen?
Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for.
You don't need George Bush for that.
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Post #225,460
9/19/05 12:56:18 PM
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Re: Lemme get *this* straight
Venezuela shouldn't try DEA agents it caught dealing drugs and spying, but the US should demand Canada hand over a canadian citizen? It probably isn't worth it for Venezuela to try DEA agents caught on crimes commited in Venezuela because they are protected by a pile of treaties and would create bad press. Far better to just expel them and mark it so they can never come back. As for Canada, if I wasn't clear I think the extradition is political manuvering passing for justice. I'm not sure if he has broken any Canadian laws, but in no case should he be turned over to the US. Jay
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Post #225,494
9/19/05 3:48:37 PM
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OK that's fair
I have no problem with the possibility that not trying the DEA agents is the pragmatic thing for Venezuela to do.
I do have a problem (and to be clear, I don't at all believe you are part of this) with the US over the past 4 years painting Chavez as a communist-narcotrafficking-antiamerican-dictator to justify destablizing his country -- so we can get his huge tracts o' land oil reserves.
Giovanni
Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for.
You don't need George Bush for that.
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Post #225,502
9/19/05 4:49:34 PM
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Ooohh.. meddlin in Da Familia's bizness here..
Some folks HQ'd on a certain island in the Mediterranean may not like sayin bad things about one o' their Franchised Corporate Operations.
Demonizing of non-cooperative idealist-types be a time-honored specialty of the Murican branch: even Italy has to acknowledge: our breeding of the purest strains of demagogues (why we've got that Cooled; Murican ones allus throw in a little God-speak; that infallibly turns off all the marks' internal BS alarms.)
Best not to be a piquein or a proddin Guido's Curiosity about Where You Live; an er ADM Rep just might show up with a violin case and a special Private Social Security Account contract, (just like the Prez's $dream for us all).
Pace pace O mio Dio...
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Post #225,513
9/19/05 5:36:31 PM
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Little wonder he's pals with Castro, eh?
They have so much in common.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #225,547
9/19/05 9:09:58 PM
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Aside from being an assasination target...
How much oil does Castro control?
-----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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Post #225,557
9/19/05 10:41:44 PM
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Depends on limit of his influence on Venezuela
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #225,084
9/16/05 4:49:19 PM
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Is Chavez really exaggerating?
The USA has already sponsored one temporarily successful coup. The USA is very aware that if a coup succeeds, the lifespans of deposed government officials tend to be short. US history in Central and South America involves a lot of people "disappearing".
Were I Chavez, I'd also be inclined to believe that the USA wants to do things that are very likely kill me. The distinction between that and actively trying to kill me would probably strike me as academic were I in his position.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #225,483
9/19/05 3:23:20 PM
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I wouldn't be surprised if it were literally true.
After all, the US junta has all the subtilty of a 16lb sledghammer and none of the intelligence or charm.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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