Post #201,931
4/5/05 5:31:00 AM
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Another Popinion -
[link|http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2005/04/05/mother/index.html| Salon] Why I can't mourn the pope
Dying of cancer, my mother was driven away from the church she loved by its doctrinal rigidity. That I can't forgive.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Joan Walsh
April 5, 2005 | My mother stopped going to church a few months before she died. It was an odd time for a lifelong Catholic with terminal breast cancer to forgo the solace of Mass, but one day it wasn't solace anymore. She came home on a Sunday in early 1976 in tears. Looking for spiritual comfort, time with God, transcendence as she approached death, she'd instead been subjected to a sermon that was a fiery antiabortion harangue, in which the priest proclaimed that pro-choice Catholics weren't Catholic at all and were going straight to hell.
The sermon enraged my mother, even though I don't think she considered herself a pro-choice Catholic. I'm a little ashamed that I don't know for sure, but sometime in the early 1970s we stopped talking politics. I knew she was the house conservative, since my father's politics were well to her left. Still, she was appalled by the church's turn to blatant political campaigning on culture-war issues, especially abortion, at the expense of dispensing spiritual wisdom and comfort. I've thought about my mother all weekend as I found myself unable to mourn Pope John Paul II. Although he didn't reach the Vatican until two years after she died, when he got there he promoted leaders just like the antiabortion zealot who so wounded my mother. He cracked down on all dissent and toughened the church's teachings on issues of sexuality -- which happen to be issues of love -- which even my somewhat conservative Catholic mother was wise enough to know might require different answers for different hearts.
My mother and much of her family were proto-Reagan Democrats, pre-Ronald Reagan working-class Catholic ethnics who began to fear their party in the wake of what the movements of the 1960s unleashed. But my mom didn't start out that way. Early on she was warmed by the sunny breezes of curiosity, activism and hope heralded by the civil rights movement and feminism, but most of all by Vatican II. Pope John XXIII was a hero in my household (along with John F. Kennedy), and the two leaders' convergence seemed to usher in a new era of engagement for American Catholics. Yes, books have been written re the Dog that did not Bark in the Night and the precipitate death of John XXIII. It'll never be resolved, just like JFK and Bushie's National Guard fight-or-flight? schedule. The elephant in the living room / Basilica. Personally, I'd prefer Anthony Quinn aka Shoes of the Fisherman as next Pope. I expect we'll get Genghis; these are the times for Excess.. and caricature.
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Post #201,936
4/5/05 7:39:23 AM
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As young girls my wife and SIL were Catholic.
(I may have this messed up a little. Don't take it as gospel. ;-)
They moved to a new town and the order of doing various things in church got messed up. They ended up taking their first communion before their first confession. When the priest found out he was furious. He said it was a mortal sin and that they were in danger of going to Hell. They had to do various prayers and such to try to make up for it.
Naturally, the girls were terrified.
They were ~ 7 at the time.
Some of the rules about this stuff are [link|http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/FIRSTCC.HTM|here].
The Catholic Church is messed up in so many ways, IMHO.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #201,964
4/5/05 10:12:53 AM
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It was probably confession before communion
Communion comes first- around 2nd grade, then your Confession (now called reconciliation)- around 4th grade.
This is why I'm a half-ass Catholic. I like the comfort and the rituals of the Mass, but dont like the politics of the Church and their antiquated Doctrine. We're in the 3rd millenium for crying out loud. The doctrine from the 13th century doesnt apply anymore. I havent been to church in a long time. I have some guilt around that, especially when my son told me he didnt know who the Pope is and my daughter said Easter is special because Jesus brings the Easter bunny.
But I'd have more guilt if I brought my kids up in a religion that doesnt believe in free choice, thinks gays are evil and thinks priests abusing little children is okay.
I'm sure I'm going to hell right along with your wife.
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Post #201,966
4/5/05 10:24:40 AM
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All the best people will be there.
Well be playing poker and drinking scotch wiskey while the good try to figure out how to tune a harp.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #201,968
4/5/05 10:32:35 AM
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If you haven't read it...
J.O.B. A Comedy Of Justice by Heinlein might be fun for you. Or it might offend you horribly. It is hard to tell in advance.
Many "recovering Catholics" that I know loved it. The basic thesis is God as a sado-masachist. (Think of the story of Job, recite the Lord's Prayer with that in mind, see if you can't see how that might work...)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #201,972
4/5/05 10:43:29 AM
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We've had this discussion before
but I do have to say that the basic thesis is that "God" is not God, but there is a real, higher level "GOD" who is everything we expect from God. There is also "GOd" who is not as good as "GOD" but better than "God". I guess there should be a "god", for completness' sake, but I could not find it. Nor could I find a "dog", either.
--
"Consider a perfectly spherical cow, radiating milk isotropically."
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002008.html|Language Log]
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Post #201,979
4/5/05 11:18:07 AM
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And we still disagree
First of all I think that the ending was a bit of a deus ex machina just to find a way of finishing, and the theology given there was not central to the rest of the book.
Secondly these higher level deities didn't pay nearly as much attention to us as traditional notions of God would. (In fact even for God and Satan, getting their attention wasn't entirely trivial.)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #202,007
4/5/05 2:08:28 PM
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Ummm
I dont know the story of Job. I'm not much of a Bible reader, either. But I do know the Lords Prayer so I'm not a complete lost cause.
I'll check out the book- looks interesting.
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Post #202,080
4/5/05 7:06:34 PM
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Job - God's little victim
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #202,123
4/5/05 9:43:44 PM
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Moral:
Bad things happen to good people - don't expect an explanation.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #202,128
4/5/05 10:29:02 PM
4/5/05 11:34:20 PM
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Today was a perfect example
I went to my cousin's funeral.
Wonderful person.
She has been a teacher for the past 35 years, specializing in special needs kids and gifted students. The grades she worked in was middle school, the toughest time as the hormones kick in.
Great mom. Her daughter spoke for about a 1/2 hour, passionately.
Great friend. There were hundreds of people in the funeral home, many of whom thought that she was their best friend.
Great teacher. There were many of her students, from many years, there.
She has been fighting cancer for 25 years. Operations, chemo, etc. She kept beating it down, it kept coming back. She has been suffering various levels of agony the whole time, both physically and emotionally.
She knew she was going to die soon, so she went to interview the funeral director and set him straight. No extreme compliments, no "heroic" bullshit.
She had a very strong sense of reponsibility. One of her final arguments with her daughter was worthy of an Ann Landers letter. She was swamped with letters, cards, gifts, etc. She believed every single one of them deserved a written thank you note in return. Her daughter just wanted her to relax a bit. She tried to convince her mom that dying people did not have to spend their final energy writing thank you notes.
Sandy will be missed by many.
(fixed a typo. Sandy would not have like it)
Edited by broomberg
April 5, 2005, 11:34:20 PM EDT
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Post #202,130
4/5/05 11:15:34 PM
4/5/05 11:16:24 PM
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Yes. Sounds like someone I would have liked to know.
Sounds like a great loss...
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Edited by imric
April 5, 2005, 11:16:24 PM EDT
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Post #202,132
4/5/05 11:30:52 PM
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Condolences. :-( Sounds like she lived a great life.
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Post #202,137
4/6/05 12:01:35 AM
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The basic story
Job was one of God's most devout worshippers. Satan and God had a bet over whether Satan could shake Job's faith. Satan then proceeded to destroy Job's life. After several years of this, Job still believed in God. When Job asked God why God had done this, God's answer basically boiled down to, "Who are you to question me?"
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #202,144
4/6/05 2:36:59 AM
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Or_____Small Gods
Terry Pratchett's (for benefit of the Bio One, if not yet aware of Discworld?)
salubrious and perspicuous explanation of the quantitative effect of faith; surely a more homologous model of the progression
godGodGOD!GOD!!
than all the archaic rhetoric of legions of robed ones, each tryin for a corner office == more converts to build it Bigger.
Pratchett For Anti-[Anti-(Anti)]Christ !!
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Post #202,173
4/6/05 10:42:59 AM
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Pratchett is VERY highly recommended
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #202,210
4/6/05 12:23:09 PM
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Annoyingly DNA-esque to my British mind.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #202,176
4/6/05 11:00:27 AM
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Oh yes, yes indeed.
--
"Consider a perfectly spherical cow, radiating milk isotropically."
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002008.html|Language Log]
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Post #202,192
4/6/05 11:48:32 AM
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You arent the first to recommend Pratchett to me
Someone else has been encouraging me to read "Small Gods". It's on the list.
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Post #202,223
4/6/05 1:39:51 PM
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Move it up the list. Preferably to the top.
If you're like the rest of us, you have an ever-growing list of things that you want to read "someday". And you never seem to get to the ones lower down on the list.
You don't want that to happen to this book. If for no other reason than the fact that stress relief is good.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #202,255
4/6/05 7:32:04 PM
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Read it
ASAP!
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Post #202,197
4/6/05 12:02:33 PM
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His best work I think
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #202,213
4/6/05 12:29:12 PM
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Well, that explains that.
That was the first book of his I read. The others, while good, just haven't lived up to it.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..."
-Isaac Asimov
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Post #202,247
4/6/05 5:03:16 PM
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Others are kind of hit or miss
They are genarlly all fun. But some are more profound than others.
I just finished The Truth. Very clever takeoff on newspaper industry. Much the way that Moving Pictures was a clever sendup of the movie industry. They're fun, just not quite so soul scratching as Small Gods.
Equal Rites, OTOH, was a wonderful commentary on gender equality.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #202,280
4/6/05 11:18:44 PM
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Try Carpe Jugulum
--
"Consider a perfectly spherical cow, radiating milk isotropically."
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002008.html|Language Log]
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Post #202,281
4/6/05 11:37:19 PM
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I think my favourite is Lords and Ladies.
Although my favourite Granny Weatherwax story is a short-story called "All The Little Fishes". In Lords and Ladies, pterry does what few writers are able to do: he successfully re-invents elves. That alone is worth the price of admission.
The Truth has a marvellous scene where William is facing off the relevant guild head. "The dwarfs and trolls were aware there was a fight in progress but there was no blood."
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #202,301
4/7/05 7:28:07 AM
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Did it
It was pretty good - but I give it a B+
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #201,963
4/5/05 10:03:14 AM
4/7/05 9:27:03 PM
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What about Hadrian VII?
Saith Ashton "Personally, I'd prefer Anthony Quinn aka Shoes of the Fisherman as next Pope." Has anyone here ever read Hadrian the Seventh by Fr.[ederick] Rolfe, AKA "Baron Corvo"? I may be going out on a limb here, but if there was a better mad fantasy wish-fulfillment novel about the papacy published between 1900 and 1910 by a certifiably paranoid repressed homosexual failed seminarian of English birth, well, I can't bring it to mind. It was adapted for the stage in the latter 1960s, and Hume Cronyn, Alec McCowen, Cyril Cusak and Derek Jacobi have at various times played the title role, a chain-smoking, Vatican-rattling, world-rearranging reformist pontiff.
cordially,
[edit: typo]
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Edited by rcareaga
April 7, 2005, 09:27:03 PM EDT
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Post #202,363
4/7/05 6:46:37 PM
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Thanks for the reminder
I was in the middle of Hadrian VII several years ago, getting a kick out of the author's exhibitionistic projection of his giant self-image on his big canvas, but then I was in a car accident and lost interest for a while... Since then we've moved, and now it's in a box somewhere and I'll have to dig it out at some point... but after i finish Mr. Norrell and Jonathan Strange, which I'm enjoying a lot.
Giovanni
Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for.
You don't need George Bush for that.
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Post #202,365
4/7/05 6:49:16 PM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #202364 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=202364|ICLRPD]
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #202,412
4/8/05 3:12:17 AM
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On list
Should be a fine diversion from the gospels of Pratchett.. thus extending the diminishing unread titles, out of which {sob} I dare not run ... during tenure of the present Warts on the asshole of Humanity.
Endless possibilities - circumscribed only by that level of deviation -?- just shy of curious Curia curare administration, (I'd wot).
But - - Anthony Quinn LOOKS the Part!
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Post #202,428
4/8/05 7:12:28 AM
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For a fine treatment of New Religion...
...consider Absolution Gap by Alastair Reynolds.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #202,591
4/9/05 3:41:54 AM
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No - Salvation is At Hand!__\ufffd All Hail The Unitarian Jihad \ufffd (new thread)
Created as new thread #202590 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=202590|No - Salvation is At Hand!__\ufffd All Hail The Unitarian Jihad \ufffd]
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