Post #196,605
2/28/05 9:47:06 AM
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Simple. All you have to do is....
....pull the engine out and you'll have plenty of room to work. :-)
Remember working on the old trucks with my brothers. Used to be able to stand inside to work on things. Can't do that nowadays since they cram everything under the hood as tight as my laptop (not to mention I'm a bit bigger now).
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Post #196,618
2/28/05 11:41:46 AM
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Remember my dad's 38 Chevy
Lift the gullwing hood panels, you could stand on one side and see clear through to the other. When my dad needed to unbolt a motor mount that had been on for probaby 45 years, he sliped a fence post over the biggest breaker bar he could find, stood on the frame rail, and leaned on it. When it finally came loose and he flew over the engine, my mother said, "I hope that sound was the bolt and not his back."
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #196,631
2/28/05 12:18:39 PM
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My old '87 Buick LeSabre 3.8 had a bolt like that.
The harmonic balancer bolt on the 90-degree 3.8 liter Buick V-6 was like that. On mine, the balancer rubber came apart and the balancer needed to be replaced. Hey, no problem. Just remove the belt and there's 1 bolt. Should be an easy job.
First there's the problem of how do you keep the motor from turning? There's no room to jab a screwdriver in the flywheel. Well, you get a magic tool that holds the teeth on the starter ring gear. Borrow from mechanic friend. Check.
Second, you need a ~ 13/16 socket. Buy from Sears. No problem. Whoops, socket cracked. Get another. Whoops, socket cracked. Buy impact socket set. Socket doesn't crack. But bolt hasn't budged either.
Third, you hear from your mechanic friend that sometimes the starter motor can develop enough torque to break the bolt loose. You put on the socket and jamb the ratchet in place to keep from turning. You try the starter motor and see the engine act as if it's going to jump out of the engine well. You try again, but still no go. You decide that there's too much risk of the motor mounts being destroyed before the bolt loosens up, so you give up on that approach.
Fourth, you think you need a big impact wrench. Buy one from Lowes. Whoops, your pancake compressor isn't big enough. Buying a bigger compressor isn't really an option (it's too heavy to move downstairs). Buy lots of 5/8" hose and a 10 gallon supplemental air tank to maybe hold enough air for a burst to loosen the bolt. Try many times. No go.
Fifth you get a long socket extension, a big ratchet, and the ~ 6' long handle from your floor jack to use as an extension for the ratchet. It looks like it's going to work! Then the ratchet head breaks. :-(
Finally, you get a non-ratcheting socket handle, use the impact socket, impact extensions, floor jack handle, ring gear tooth holder, and you tug, and tug and lean on it and tug some more. You see the handles bend about 2 feet from the relaxed position. And you think that if something breaks this time it's going to fly up and kill you. And finally something gives and all of the handles fall to the ground.
And you're done. After a month of weekends fighting with it.
And you recall the $250 quote you got from a repair shop to replace the balancer and wonder whether it might have been worth it after all...
IIRC, the bolt was factory-torqued to 280 foot-pounds. It seemed a lot tighter (and might have been due to hammering of the balancer after it failed).
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who likes to chalk things up to experience.)
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Post #196,635
2/28/05 12:28:03 PM
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Smart people learn from experience
Really smart people learn from other people's experience.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #196,637
2/28/05 12:31:32 PM
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Then my job here is done.
Or maybe I also posted it to keep me from trying that again. My diesel's is probably torqued to 800 foot-pounds or something. :-p
Hey, it's a good way to rationalize buying new tools if the wife wonders what you're doing every weekend rather than working on the house. ;-) It doesn't work too many times though, so pick your unsolvable problem carefully. :-(
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #196,638
2/28/05 12:32:49 PM
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My unsolvable problems tend to pick me
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #196,640
2/28/05 12:49:51 PM
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Your in the range of close...
Depends on what CID the Diesel is.
The bigger the CID the higher the Torque Setting or larger the bolt or both.
280 ft-lbs is DAM tight. And yes, there is a special tool for getting the bolt out. It uses the motor against itself. Basically with the ring-gear tooth holder in place, then attach this tool. About 40,000 bolt revolutions (yes it seems that way, but prolly about 40) you hear a snap. Either it is loose or you get to remove the remains of the bolt from the crankshaft snub. I have used the big one to get those off Semi Tractor motors, when I worked as a shop hand in a diesel shop.
I did happen to break one of the loose a few years ago, but that was with an impact socket and a real impact t-bar made with impact hardened material (and was made for a sledgehammer to hit it from the top for shocking the metal) and was a 3/4" drive, and about 8ft of 1-1/2" ID 3/16" wall high-pressure welded seam cold-rolled pipe. Almost had to use a winch to lift the pipe and t-bar setup.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
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Post #196,655
2/28/05 2:29:32 PM
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OT: how does one go about removing the remains
of the bolt? Isn't it quite a challenge?
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #196,670
2/28/05 5:22:43 PM
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With tools, of course.
Broken bolts are just another excuse to buy more tools!
[link|http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40349|Screw and Bolt extractors]
--
Steve
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Post #196,697
2/28/05 6:27:01 PM
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Tools are overrated...
With [link|http://marginalhacks.com/Hacks/album/Themes/Craftsman/src/Hammer/Hammer.gif|one or two of these] you can do most anything. :-)
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Post #196,700
2/28/05 7:25:39 PM
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Ironically (?)
I have a good friend who's a mechanic and happens to be a Ford hater. He calls those 'Ford tools' cuz you can't fix nuttin' on a Ford without one!
--
Steve
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Post #196,745
3/1/05 7:29:12 AM
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Typically it isn't that bad.
You get to drill a nice hole in the center of the bolt remains and then you use a tool called an "E-Z Out"...
Which it isn't. But good thing, usually the crankshaft bolt does come out since it is basically not corroded.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
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Post #196,760
3/1/05 9:25:33 AM
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But, "easy-out" - is that *really* what it's called?
Even among people who use them daily? I have a hard time believing that even American mechanics are that bereft of imagination...
Back when I was a kid, and occasionally helped my Dad extract a bolt (the ones that hold the exhaust manifold to the cylinder head on the Volvo B18 engine were especially prone to breaking, as I recall), I learned quite a different moniker for that kind of tool.
Mon cher pere and his colleagues at work all swore that the reason they called it a "grispitt" was that it looks exactly like a part of the porcine anatomy... So that's not some wimpy "E-Z Out" (or however you want spell it) -- it's a "Hog Dick"!
HTH! :-)
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #196,805
3/1/05 3:08:47 PM
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That is the:
Brand Name.
E-Z Out™
Yeap, in the the less educated areas of the Appalachian Mountains area in the US, they done call it a "Hog's Dick" cause it screws in the wrong direction.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
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Post #196,845
3/1/05 7:44:01 PM
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Rofl!
Alex
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #196,750
3/1/05 8:01:20 AM
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Worst case - you replace the crankshaft.
It really depends on how the bolt breaks. If the head comes off cleanly so that there's no longer tension on the threads, the the balancer bolt should come out relatively cleanly as others state. However, if the head breaks off in a way that leaves the bolt still under tension, then you've got big problems. You can't get more torque on an [link|http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=10474&group_ID=1261&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog|"easy-out"] than you can on a good bolt head... It's rare for bolts to break like that though. With an "easy-out" you drill a hole in the bolt (often much easier said than done), then screw the e-o into it. It's a left-handed thread so tightening it is supposed to loosen the bolt. There are similar things with "flutes" that work on the same principle.
A more common problem is for other bolts to be rusty and siezed to their surroundings. If you don't have a good grip on the bolt head (with a socket that grips the flats rather than the corners of the head), you can round-off the head and then have a terrible time getting it out. An e-o isn't as much help in those cases, but sometimes it's your only choice. In cases like that, it's good to use a penetrating oil and sometimes some heat and pounding before attempting to remove the bolt.
There are also thread renewing kits (you drill out a larger hole then thread in a metal spiral that serves as new threads that are the same size as the original). Lots of work, and you need enough material to hold the insert. But it saves replacing the damaged part.
If all of that doesn't work, then you replace the crankshaft.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #196,864
3/1/05 9:47:14 PM
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Second the penetrating oil.. Impact wrench?
And whacking the sucker periodically (which is also therapeutic, while waiting). Even whacking it in the 'tighten' direction; anything to move those molecules around. Others have confirmed this drill.
And if somehow the threads inside a crankshaft got really corroded: {ugh} I'd expect that hi-tensile bolt to drill out only with great difficulty, needing progressively larger, rilly sharp bits, slow speed + lube -- and try to do all that in a bloody awkward place, maybe with no room for anything but a rt-angle drill head. :(
I think I'd opt for an impact wrench - if it will fit in there; air or electric. Rent? There's less likelihood of twisting off the head if you can first let the oil do its work and then use physics: Impulse! F x t puts Newton on Your side.
Related tale:
(I note that my car has a bolt allegedly at 180 ft. pounds, but per reports - sometimes acts like 300.) People have worked out a means for wedging one extended lever arm on garage floor / or dismantling even more stuff and using impact wrench + special HD socket. Turns out too: there's a tool which fits a slot in the pulley; tis folly to attempt a chain wrench to hold it == a very Expen$ive pulley.
This won't help with breaking-loose the &$&*#% nut (in this case). Those not going the impact route report needing (cheapest) fence-post 'pipe', not ordinary galvanized water pipe, and at least 5' extension over a 3/4 drive breaker bar. \ufffd" ones snap with regularity. One has to remember needing a 180 ft-# torque wrench on reassembly, too.
Fortunately, my timing belt was changed just before I got the car :-)
80K more miles to go ...
moi,
who just rebuilt distributor (shaft seal + flattened O-rings) and saved a potful for a pretty simple job.
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Post #196,868
3/1/05 10:16:12 PM
3/2/05 9:41:37 AM
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The problems with impact wrenches are ...
1) They need a lot of air.
2) The torque they supply isn't continuous.
Both bit me in my adventure discussed above. I bought one of [link|http://www2.northerntool.com/product-1/370269.htm|these] at Lowes. "625 ft.-lbs. max torque in reverse." Should have been more than enough to take off the bolt, but even with multiple tanks at 130 psi, with 5/8" pneumatic hose in between, I couldn't get it to budge. It claims it needs 5.4 cfm (at 90 psi IIRC, 21 CFM under load). Note that it says that it handles bolts up to 5/8" - I don't know if that's head size or bolt diameter. (The actual head size on my balancer bolt was 1 1/8".)
In my attempts, I would get ~ 2 s of full-power impacting before the air pressure had dropped too much. I tried about 5 cycles of refilling the tanks and hoses and trying the impact before giving up.
Even if I had enough air, it still might not have been able to do the job because the 625 ft-lbs of torque is only for a tiny instant in time each impact. Continuous torque from a wrench (and a long handle), or from the flywheel is probably the most reliable way to do it. That's what worked in my case anyway.
[edit:] An illustration of how torque from an impact is different from torque from a wrench: You can easily hold a socket on a 625 ft-lb impact and keep it from turning, while you'd have a pretty hard time holding a socket attached to a torque wrench with 20% of that torque applied.[/edit]
[link|http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=371242&R=371242|This] would probably have been able to do it (says it can handle 1 3/8" bolts), but at 12 CFM average (64 CFM under load!) it would have taken a 450 pound [link|http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=767&R=767|compressor the size of the car] just to keep up. Almost.
Oh, I also tried an electric impact wrench. I broke it within about 5 s. It sounded like a pin sheared inside it. Luckily, Home Depot took it back.
It was a big bolt. The threads were perfect in my case - no K5 at all. ;-) It was just very very tight.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who enjoys working on cars when he can get something accomplished in a reasonable amount of time and hates it when he can't.)
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Post #196,880
3/2/05 12:25:49 AM
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Hah.. think you've explained why
Some of the [car X] clan had no problemo using an electric? air? 'impact wrench' -- and others did. Ditto the long, slow grunt way.
I'm about concluding that the supposed torque-on figures + whatever results from the range of thread tolerances, storage in wet garages etc. -- might mean a release torque maybe even 2x, 3x? the supposed value. Clearly (as to car X) -- the experience varied greatly among different operators.
And all the 'data' is clouded by the amount of energy which goes into bending (heating?) those lengthy poles, contrived by the desperate at 2 am.
Methinks I see a Q. on a grad ME exam: Calculate the energy! aka Impulse x Time to break the putative bond, then relate that to the mSecs of service via air or electrics. Some strange stuff is happening at that interface. (Remember when folks believed you could never accelerate (car with tires) beyond 1-G, because F=\ufffdN ??)
Dragsters have since demonstrated that 'gearing' effects wipe that simplistic idea of friction, too.
I can envision a long bar for torque, with a flattened 'anvil' area near the hub; the first foot or so being massive/stiff. One body pulls (or hangs) while another turns a maul loose on the anvil. As to your Jumbo $1700 gadget. Pshaw. Before that: chill/heat (as Box reminds) strike and soak.
I'm glad I won't have to find out anytime soon.
But it could still be fun to drive some ME students to distraction :-\ufffd
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Post #196,873
3/1/05 10:52:06 PM
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in these discussions I havnt seen mention of a smoke wrench
oxy acetelyne on the nut makes the metal expand loosening the nut (oft times enough to get it off)
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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