Post #196,205
2/24/05 11:36:16 AM
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Job language choices
I have a project that does a lot of
workflow, file flow, text processing out the
wazoo, along with about 30% database activity.
I receive files, parse them, do notifications,
do lookups based on external text files and
mainframe VSAM files, load them into a database,
and then do workflow (flag the records, release
the records for non-Database production).
Then I output the records, and run through a
few steps there, which then causes a LOT of
people to do a LOT of physical activity, which
includes some minor bar-code scanning to track
the workpiece location, etc.
So I needed a simple Oracle install on my quad
Opteron. Minimal user count, about 10GB of
data a year, very straight forward.
I've been out of the DBA business for a few years.
While I COULD do it, I see no need if I can delegate.
We have a DBA in another department, hired about 2
months ago (and no, I did not tech proof him).
I sat in a few meetings as he took control (which was
good), but then it became obvious (to me) he is a 4 who
thinks he's a 9.
But a 4 is good enough for my stuff, since the data is
small and the backup/restore WILL be tested by ME.
So I'm in a meeting with the DBA and my project manager,
a person who I've been doing projects with for abbout 15
years.
DBA: What version do you want, 9 or 10?
Me: Don't care, whatever you are comfortable supporting.
Just make sure the various external drivers work such
as ODBC, .NET, and Oracle DBI.
Note: We have several 9i instances chugging along, the 10
will be new to us.
DBA: Perl? Why do you Perl? You don't really need that,
do you?
Me: (as I CAREFULLY modulate my voice) The language choice
is not your concern. Just make sure the drivers are in place.
DBA: No, I really need to know. Why don't you just write in
PL/SQL? It can do anything Perl can and is much better with the
Oracle.
Me: DO I LOOK AS STUPID AS THE LAST PERSON YOU SAID THAT TO?!?!?
(ok, voice back down, pointing to the process flow on the white
board) You see that - (point, point, point). Each of those pieces
will be written in Perl or C#, with some interaction with the database
(point, point and point).
DBA: But why don't you write all them in PL/SQL?
Me: Ok, you are not a programmer, so you may feel that
is an reasonable question. Fine. I'm, doing a lot of
flat file processing, I'm doing user interaction, I'm
doing multi-system file transfers, I'm doing Linux and
mainframe integration using 3rd party tools, I'm doing ...
DBA: Fine, let's put that aside and review it later.
Me: THERE IS NO REVIEW FOR YOU! YOU HAVE NO SAY ON
THE LANGUAGE CHOICES.
DBA: But Perl is so difficult for me to support with Oracle.
Me: "Difficult"? You need to make sure some libraries are
in place! Forgive me to asking your to do your job!!!!
do you?
The language issue was canned and we went on to backup
strategies.
The project manager told me my reactions were MUCH calmer
than he expected.
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Post #196,208
2/24/05 12:09:26 PM
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You should be using control tables.
In XBase.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #196,215
2/24/05 12:33:33 PM
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Surely you meant to say "SmallTalk"?
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
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Post #196,471
2/26/05 11:22:00 PM
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you mean Smalltalk?
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #196,209
2/24/05 12:11:12 PM
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typical DBA response
You support the database pal, I support how the data is presented to the tables. Your dmarque is the oracle pid and associated listeners and libraries.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #196,210
2/24/05 12:13:06 PM
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Yeah, that calls for choice language.
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #196,223
2/24/05 1:17:58 PM
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Someone else should carefully take him aside...
point out how long you've been working there, what kinds of projects you've accomplished, and the fact that senior management views your technical assessments like the pronouncements of God. It should also be mentioned that you've handled numerous technical jobs along the way, including his. With extremely satisfactory results.
A good person to do this might be your project manager.
If he hears all this and does not re-consider his attitude, then he probably is not toilet-trainable and you should have no qualms about causing him serious problems if he proves to be even a minor inconvenience.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #196,224
2/24/05 1:42:10 PM
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Won't happen
While what you say about my history and senior management is true, it does not apply to his group. They have a new person in charge, and has decided that Perl code is just too tough, as is anything running via shell scripts on the Unix/Linux command line, and wouldn't it just be so much easier to write ALL their systems using either SQL/Server Transact/SQL or Oracle PL/SQL, and if you HAVE to you something out of the database, then either Visual Basic or C# is the perfect place to do it.
WHAT AN IDIOT!!!!!!
Anything I say against that attitude is "old thinking", and simply discounted as someone unwilling to change. After all, I either wrote or advised on every project in place. So I keep my mouth shut unless asked, and am always careful not to disparage any idea without a concrete example of how it would HAVE to fail.
Hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe all this stuff CAN be done they way they are planning.
Yeah, sure.
I am no longer in that group, and it KILLS the manager of that group to ask me for help. He really dislikes me, even though he would never show it.
When he showed up, he had a stack of tech books, including Unix, Perl, Oracle, Windows, SQL/Server, etc. He claimed to be technology agnostic. I walked over to his book shelf, opened the books, and flipped through them.
Almost every single one (except the Windows and SQL/Server books) make the characteristic noise of the spine cracking for the 1st time.
I did this right in front of him.
So basically I told him he was full of shit within 10 minutes of him moving into his office, without actually saying it out loud.
On the other hand, in my current role, I've just hired an asistant for his Linux skills, and have an opening for a Linux/Perl programmer to work on my new systems. I might end up transferring a person or 2 out of my old department as they get more and more frustrated with the direction they are going.
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Post #196,226
2/24/05 2:42:58 PM
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Difference between can and should
Hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe all this stuff CAN be done they way they are planning. I'm pretty sure they can do things the way you mention. But that doesn't mean it is a good idea. I've been banging my head against that wall all week. Can I set height and width on HTML table objects to try and force the browser to size and place everything the way the designer wants it down the pixel? Yes I can, but we shouldn't be trying to do that in the first place. Can I go ahead and build a Cold Fusion email page on a predominatly ASP site, cause the site does that already and it won't be making performance or security any worse? Yes I can, but really it is not something we should want to do. Can I rush this project live ASAP without enough testing? Yes I can, I can also hold a gun to my head and pull the trigger. I don't think either is a good plan. Jay
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Post #196,227
2/24/05 2:48:02 PM
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Got it
So this new guy is basically just demonstrating that he's a good fit with what he understands to be the new regime. And unless you want to confront that regime head on, this is not a battle that you particularly want to take too far. Give 'em rope, let them demonstrate the "value" of the new approach on their own projects.
You can also axe the snide comment that I'd considered of telling him that you'd heard that MySQL does everything that Oracle does, and if you use MySQL then perhaps you don't need to bother with a DBA...
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #196,228
2/24/05 3:07:16 PM
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of course there is always room for sql queries
it has its places and usage, however c with nested SQL is the OLD answer before perl, scripting and etc came along. Is there a strict sql program that they have in place that you could outstrip their preformance using other tools to rub his nose in it? making everything sql is empire building and should be squashed immediately.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #196,231
2/24/05 3:33:26 PM
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C w/ nested SQL
I wish.
No, they want all business logic to be in stored procedured using PL/SQL or Transact/SQL.
Thousands of stored procedures or a nighmare of dynamic SQL generation code in order to do what I consider simpe Perl code.
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Post #196,238
2/24/05 5:12:05 PM
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Well there's the problem
Thousands of stored procedures or a nighmare of dynamic SQL generation code in order to do what I consider simpe Perl code. Emphasis added. If he doesn't know how your code works, he needs you. PHBs hate needing people. ===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #196,241
2/24/05 5:34:18 PM
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He has Perl people
2 who are far better than me, 3 who are about the same.
He does not need me as all.
But when they are done moving stuff to the database, he will then need a boatload of people to maintain what they have.
His highpriced VB/SQL/Server buddy create a semi-working app with several hundred cut&paste stored procedures. All that did almost the same thing, with tiny differences. While I'm told the language CAN be done better, his key people obviously aren't the ones doing it that way.
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Post #196,360
2/25/05 4:38:49 PM
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I feel your pain re command-line/shell phobia
I had a former co-worker who flat-out said " I don't do command line". Much like Mariah Carey says she doesn't do stairs.
I'm still surprised/saddened by the amount of people who think if it can't be pointed-to and clicked-at, it can't be done.
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
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Post #196,400
2/26/05 2:34:02 AM
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Now, I'm all weird on this.
When it comes to UNIX and VMS, I prefer to type. VMS in particular gives you great typing skills, especially as the DCL prompt doesn't have command completion.
When it comes to my own box, I get very annoyed if I can't point and drool. But I admin my server (when it's working; still awaiting new wireless NIC) in an SSH session, even though I could connect it to my monitor.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #196,882
3/2/05 1:21:47 AM
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I have my Happy Hacking keyboard here at work.
I still get comments about it. But I do all my programming in vi. For which it's perfect. And even mousing is easier because there's no numeric keypad between the active keys and the rodent.
I usually admin my home server with SSH. I've got a monitor plugged in, but there's no X server running, so I may as well SSH in from a larger screen.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #196,885
3/2/05 1:38:53 AM
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No good for me.
Where would I map the Do, Remove, Select, and Insert keys? Where would I put F20? The gold key?
See, VMS people need more buttons to make their text editor go :-)
I never, EVER saw the point of the "happy hacking" keyboard. No-one's desk is THAT small.
/me throws a LK450 at you. Proper keyboard. With a Do key. And 20 function keys.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #196,976
3/3/05 1:27:46 AM
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I used a real VT320 for a while in a previous job.
It was verra ni-i-ice. I even had a go of a real VT340 once or twice - same as a 320 but colour. :-)
I'd consider a HH keyboard that had a row of function keys. True, I get used to Fn+5, but a real F5 key would be just that little bit better. I know, I know, it's hard to please *everyone*.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #196,981
3/3/05 1:39:41 AM
3/3/05 1:41:16 AM
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Re: I used a real VT320 for a while in a previous job.
I use a 320 regularly, and I think it's OK, but I wouldn't describe it as 'verra nice".
I reserve that assessment for the 510, which is the king of dumb terminals. The 320 is, however, better than the 410 because the 410s are always very dim.
(The 340 is OK, but it is enormous and the screens are always deconverged.)
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Edited by pwhysall
March 3, 2005, 01:41:16 AM EST
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Post #196,493
2/27/05 4:27:20 AM
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Us Old-timers report:
The best training (and argument for CL work) Ever! was -
Wait for it . . .
WordStar !!!
The mnemonics were GrrreaT; antithesis of the anal unassociated detritus in Word Imperfect's random labels. From superscripts to block markers, etc. - you soon memorized the scheme; never had to take hands from kb == a natural for the {then still} touch-typists, just naively entering the mind-fuck black hole of 'computers'.
Ex:
One time was watching SO, a super-fast typist - composing a paper for a reactor physicist, with ton(ne)s of 92U235 type refs and (simple) equations, not needing math graphics (which WS couldn't then do). In the amount of time spent *here* on one "U-235", even with wee codes: she could have entered 5-8 isotopes. When you have to bloody MOUSE for it - make that 8-12.
Ergo: anyone trained on WS would be the last to bitch about kb entry.
Of course, anyone neuron-debilitated by fucking Doze AND who never learned to type ..
CP/M Rulez
Still.
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Post #196,602
2/28/05 9:22:03 AM
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Ctrl-= - subscript Ctrl-+ - superscript
Ctrl-space - default format.
Took me 3 minutes to find in Word Help
Also available:
CTRL+D
Change the formatting of characters (Font command, Format menu)
SHIFT+F3
Change the case of letters
CTRL+SHIFT+A
Format letters as all capitals
CTRL+B
Apply bold formatting
CTRL+U
Apply an underline
CTRL+SHIFT+W
Underline words but not spaces
CTRL+SHIFT+D
Double-underline text
CTRL+SHIFT+H
Apply hidden text formatting
CTRL+I
Apply italic formatting
CTRL+SHIFT+K
Format letters as small capitals
CTRL+EQUAL SIGN
Apply subscript formatting (automatic spacing)
CTRL+SHIFT+PLUS SIGN
Apply superscript formatting (automatic spacing)
CTRL+SPACEBAR
Remove manual character formatting
CTRL+SHIFT+Q
Change the selection to the Symbol font
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #196,249
2/24/05 6:24:09 PM
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<Pssst.>
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=195852|#195852].
Seriously, I don't want to cause any trouble for you, but if your magic box has spare cycles and your boss doesn't mind, it would be fun to see what it could do.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #196,549
2/27/05 3:40:23 PM
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Who does have the responsibility to pick language?
I would perhaps say something like, "It is my understanding that it is my responsibility to select the application language. If you disagree, we can take it up with our superiors. Do you wish to go that route? Let's each write up a 2-page paper justifying our side of the story."
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #196,554
2/27/05 5:27:59 PM
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Not a chance
I will not get into the situation where I would allow him to cause me that much effort.
From a corp perspective:
He reports to a manager who reports to a VP who reports to the CTO.
I report to the CTO.
His task is to support whatever the hell I want him to, or to give a GOOD reason not to.
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Post #196,567
2/27/05 6:47:14 PM
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But he's *got* a good reason
He doesn't know how to do that. He'd have to learn something, and not just what menu to look on: actually learn it.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #198,202
3/12/05 12:21:23 PM
3/12/05 12:31:16 PM
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After reading the whole thread....
They may be wanting the PL/SQL and/or stored procedures to isolate the table structures from the application.
In a lot of places, that kind of interface can be a good thing, 'cause they can change the table structure without causing you pain.
But it's development overhead to do it.
As to writing files directly from PL/SQL, we do it in some database triggers and they are a BEAR to maintain. Bring up the fact that any database patch/upgrade will require the packages to be recompiled. If the file locations change, the PL/SQL has to change, etc.
Our Perl uses configuration files to dynamically set values like the filename pattern, directory, etc. and our business analysts even update the config files.
But, when you're an Oracle DBA and the only tool you know is Oracle, then it must be done in PL/SQL.
Glen
Edited by gdaustin
March 12, 2005, 12:31:16 PM EST
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Post #198,207
3/12/05 1:34:37 PM
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There is no THEY
There is me. My project, my headache, my development.
And there is an overreaching DBA who we borrowed for a simple Oracle install.
Which was a mistake.
He ended up installing clustering stuff that modified the inittab that needed to be turned off. Which meant he was so clueless that he had no business touching my box.
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Post #198,214
3/12/05 2:33:00 PM
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Ugh.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #198,248
3/12/05 5:44:40 PM
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ya dinna cluster unless directed to do so explicitly
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #198,252
3/12/05 6:05:17 PM
3/12/05 6:17:48 PM
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Yes there is...
The overreaching DBA and his interventionist management.
But if you really think it's just the "he", then it's time to dispense with him and install Oracle yourself, or bring in your own contractor. Installing Oracle is not that hard.
Unfortunately, I'm at a "big company" and we're not permitted that option. The DBA "must" install. We have a couple of lab machines, not on the corporate "server" network and I started an Oracle install there. I had one quick question for the DBA about a standards doc, and then she was on to me. After that, it went downhill quickly. Next time, I'll just do it the way I think it should be done.
The DBA did complement me that my install was exactly as she would have done it, but she owns it now. Even on the lab machine.
She lets me pick the development language, and pretty much just makes sure the database continues to operate and not run out of space. I was angry a while back because it was performing terrible and she didn't know the difference between "analyze" statistics and "gather" statistics. Know she knows, after I sent her the page number of the Performance tuning manual.
Glen Austin
Edited by gdaustin
March 12, 2005, 06:17:48 PM EST
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Post #198,304
3/12/05 11:52:25 PM
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You have to remeber how we are organised
We have a business unit that does marketing databases.
He works "there".
We have a print unit that does direct mail.
I work "here".
I've probably got far more experience installing and maintaining Oracle instances than him, but I'm a busy guy, he's not, so I figured I could let him do it.
So I asked for his time up the chain, over the wall, down the chain.
He has no ownership of it, and when it crashes, it will fall to me to make it right.
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