Post #190,932
1/20/05 6:06:30 AM
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"Human nature"
Maybe.
Maybe, though - only for so long as that 'nature' remains stalled in primitive fear-based cosmologies, anthropomorphic deities and the like - thus remaining
even more fearful ... of that which they dare not explore, within or without.
(Then again, perhaps there Is a seppuku gene, as it appears..)
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Post #190,937
1/20/05 7:55:55 AM
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Name me one philosophy that assumes
perfectable humans and does not lead to a disaster when applied in practice...
The idea that man is good leads to disasters.
The idea that man is bad leads to ... what we have now.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,949
1/20/05 9:09:49 AM
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Taoism.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,966
1/20/05 11:09:11 AM
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Not familiar enough with the history of China
But what little research I did shows that
1) Taoism has been a state religion in China for a long time, along with Confucianism
2) Taoism seems to think that people are essentially good
However, other places seem to say that the Conficianism had much more to do with actually running the state than Taoism, and it's not quite clear what the hell Taoism thinks.
Do we have an expert around here?
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,973
1/20/05 12:15:44 PM
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We have *lots* of experts around here
You don't expect any two of them to agree, do you?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #190,974
1/20/05 12:21:13 PM
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For starters, I'd like to hear one of them speak :)
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,980
1/20/05 12:37:47 PM
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"The name that can be named is not the eternal name."
Chapter 1
The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.
Chapter 2
Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.
Therefore having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short contrast each other:
High and low rest upon each other;
Voice and sound harmonize each other;
Front and back follow one another.
Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.
The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,
Creating, yet not.
Working, yet not taking credit.
Work is done, then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts forever.
Chapter 8
The highest good is like water.
Water give life to the ten thousand things and does not strive.
It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao.
In dwelling, be close to the land.
In meditation, go deep in the heart.
In dealing with others, be gentle and kind.
In speech, be true.
In ruling, be just.
In daily life, be competent.
In action, be aware of the time and the season.
No fight: No blame.
The Tao Te Ching is, for lack of a better word, The Bible of Taoism. Those are some of my favorite chapters. The translations vary slightly between one another. Chuang Tzu's writings read a little easier for most. They're written more in the form of western religions (iow, stories). When I was 12 I sought out Taoism on my own - scared hell out of my mother because she was raised (and remains) a Southern Baptist. I went to several churches, both Catholic and Protestant, but none that spoke to me. Taoism did. Taoism is non-theistic, not to be confused with aetheistic. Taoism doesn't ponder the question. One of Chuang Tzu's stories (severely paraphrased and simplified) speaks to the existence of a deity. Life is a corridor and death is a door. As you pass through the corridor, if you focus on the door and what potentially lies beyond it, you miss everything in the corridor. I was glad I found Taosim when I did. At 13 I lost three of my closest friends in an automobile accident that left my mom in the hospital for 18 months. I kept thinking about one of Chuang Tzu's stories about a man who hears that his friend's wife has died. He knew the couple loved each other dearly and that they had been married a very long time. He went to see his friend to offer his condolences. When he arrived at his friend's house, he was horrified to find his friend laughing, feasting and having a party. He said to his friend, "Have you no feeling? How can you enjoy yourself so? Do you not mourn the death of your wife?" His friend replied, "If I mourn her death, I would be mourning her birth and how could I do that?" bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #191,046
1/21/05 1:55:43 AM
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By employing the very basis for the illusionary
[??] "world of duality", digital choice - "Man is Good/Bad - take your pick":
you circumscribe the construction of any Useful question to ask "about the possibilities of the species" -- guaranteeing a priori, a reductio.. after the tiresome Boolean exercise is done. If Beauty is something about seeking the right Questions to ask, what if our Big 'Q'uestions have been all-along entirely too maudlin, pedestrian.. rooted as they so often are: in the Primitive and appealing mostly to the instinctive fight/flight brain.
A story told by the famous piano accompanist, [link|http://www.grainger.de/dbe/sbs/mref009.html| Gerald Moore] re his experience with many Immortals - including the Great Russian basso, Fyodor Chaliapin:
~~We played through the song.
Chaliapin says, "Is.. too.. high."
"Very well", I say and transpose down a half-tone.
We finish and Chaliapin says, "Is.. too.. low.
. . .
Have.. you.. nothing.. in.. between?"
So I played .. .. Both. [think chopsticks].
ie one way to rephrase would consider the possibility of the species - not so much 'evolving' as, simply -- learning to Value the remembering of one's 'Consciousness', while learning to love the Unanswerable Questions about "a One's" origins -- and working at raising that level of Consciousness. Er, fairly often in a day - that is.
(Of course, such an aim might require the cultivation, inculcation even: of a compelling desire for growth in that direction / and quite less-urgent desires for, say: Owning One or Two of Everything imaginable? With leather seats.)
Might not work out. But it's a thought.
Beats: Good/Bad - take your pick ;-)
moi
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Post #191,116
1/21/05 6:37:42 PM
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Thank you for mangling my words
I did not say "good/bad". I said "perfectable humans". While I may not have been using the best term, it's certainly not as simple as "good/bad".
Waht I meant to say is "most humans, when left to themselves, without daily repeated conditioninig and without daily repeated moral struggle, have the tendency to do the right thing (whatever the ideology in question considers the right thing)".
For example:
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to devote their life to study and observation of Torah. (counterexample - Judaism does not say this)
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to love their neighbors as themselves. (counterexample - Christianity does not say this)
Germans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to be the Wonderful Arian Beings. (not sure where to put this one - the system collapsed not because they failed to be Perfect Arians (and yes they did fail), but because it was limited to Germans only)
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to live for peace and longevity.
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, enjoy production and will be happy to satisfy others' needs.
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to rationally consider the rational world and deal with other humans on the rational, long-view basis. (this has never been attempted in reality, but an adherent of this one recently remarked that Govt should not send money to tzunami victims)
Is this sufficiently nuanced for you?
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #191,136
1/21/05 11:19:50 PM
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Ah well, rereading for nuance -
And yes: "absence of correlation" between the sayings of Sages and the daily activities of those who claim to follow their Principles. And always, for perspective - "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain Forgive my reading The idea that man is good leads to disasters.
The idea that man is bad leads to ... what we have now.
as a generalization hardly suggestive of any remedy, other than 'conserving' the status quo -- because it Works So Well. Still, even the idea of capitalized- Good, Bad - mandates a higher scale 'Objective' 'Morality' (whether imposed from Above or 'interpreted' via some Acolytes of Mr. Above). And all of Western religiosity seeks that Authority, searches "outside" .. for that which is manifestly "inside". Natch - nothing can be done with or perhaps.. because of such assertions. cf. alt-religion or other mosh pits. All I mean is (what I said) The species remains stuck in the dregs of an attitude towards the umm ineffable which is based upon earliest fear-based atavism. Primitives constructed a Deity with human quirks, a One demanding perpetual adoration .. and a One instantly capable of horrific retribution. Ever thus - since. It's still ALL ABOUT FEAR and about the anthropomorphizing of the Unknowable - to accommodate limited homo-sap jelloware - which is even more obtuse, in mob form. ('Love' may be closer to the OS of that ineffable Cosmic Unknowable - but many humans screw up even that magnificent Idea(l) just as badly as they did with the duelling MyGodIsGreater construct.) I figure - we'll outgrow that infancy, and pretty soon -?- or kill selves off in mid-adolescence. Pretty soon. [Some are, and currently: Longing for Just That denouement + 'My' Face-time with #1] Flip coin.
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