Thank you for mangling my words

I did not say "good/bad". I said "perfectable humans". While I may not have been using the best term, it's certainly not as simple as "good/bad".

Waht I meant to say is "most humans, when left to themselves, without daily repeated conditioninig and without daily repeated moral struggle, have the tendency to do the right thing (whatever the ideology in question considers the right thing)".

For example:

Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to devote their life to study and observation of Torah. (counterexample - Judaism does not say this)

Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to love their neighbors as themselves. (counterexample - Christianity does not say this)

Germans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to be the Wonderful Arian Beings. (not sure where to put this one - the system collapsed not because they failed to be Perfect Arians (and yes they did fail), but because it was limited to Germans only)

Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to live for peace and longevity.

Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, enjoy production and will be happy to satisfy others' needs.

Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to rationally consider the rational world and deal with other humans on the rational, long-view basis. (this has never been attempted in reality, but an adherent of this one recently remarked that Govt should not send money to tzunami victims)

Is this sufficiently nuanced for you?

And yes: "absence of correlation" between the sayings of Sages and the daily activities of those who claim to follow their Principles.

And always, for perspective -
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"
--Mark Twain

Forgive my reading

The idea that man is good leads to disasters.

The idea that man is bad leads to ... what we have now.

as a generalization hardly suggestive of any remedy, other than 'conserving' the status quo -- because it Works So Well.

Still, even the idea of capitalized- Good, Bad - mandates a higher scale 'Objective' 'Morality' (whether imposed from Above or 'interpreted' via some Acolytes of Mr. Above). And all of Western religiosity seeks that Authority, searches "outside" .. for that which is manifestly "inside". Natch - nothing can be done with or perhaps.. because of such assertions. cf. alt-religion or other mosh pits.

All I mean is (what I said)
The species remains stuck in the dregs of an attitude towards the umm ineffable which is based upon earliest fear-based atavism. Primitives constructed a Deity with human quirks, a One demanding perpetual adoration .. and a One instantly capable of horrific retribution. Ever thus - since.

It's still ALL ABOUT FEAR and about the anthropomorphizing of the Unknowable - to accommodate limited homo-sap jelloware - which is even more obtuse, in mob form.
('Love' may be closer to the OS of that ineffable Cosmic Unknowable - but many humans screw up even that magnificent Idea(l) just as badly as they did with the duelling MyGodIsGreater construct.)

I figure - we'll outgrow that infancy, and pretty soon -?- or kill selves off in mid-adolescence. Pretty soon. [Some are, and currently: Longing for Just That denouement + 'My' Face-time with #1]

Flip coin.

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